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Post by sofia on Sept 4, 2018 20:02:41 GMT
Also, the talk on 'Big Moves' doesnt mean 'Big Impressive Moves' like a powerbomb, but rather just saying 'Large Damage Moves.' If Flair has a suplex in one of his Large Categories, it's one of his 'Big Moves' in his inventory. Right. It doesn't have to be a pop-up powerbomb or anything - even a back body drop can be a big move in the right context, or a running clothesline, or anything like that that would potentially force one wrestler to sell and the other to run low on breath. I imagine this is why why the NJPW defaults generally have less than 65 discretion now - it forces them into a situation where they keep going without stopping until late match, where ANY move is likely to put them in a position where they gotta stop and catch their breath. This is also why it's a bit dangerous to give anyone outside of junior and lucha style wrestlers the highest breathing possible. They need it because they're running the ropes WELL above 15%, they're coming off the top, and high-impact moves are almost always a D or E in their fight style, meaning they take a lot more out of them. I may be stabbing in the dark here but having high breathing skill prevents you from having those moments in the match where the action comes to a pause because both guys are starting to run on fumes. If you're making a long-match character, I'd think you would want that to sell the toll it's taken on them. Right, unless you're doing a wrestler in a style of wrestling where ropework doesn't happen much -- let's say we have someone who is a straight up, old school shooter or hooker -- turning down hammer throw so low is detrimental to the overall flow. Spike did this in the past... but then again, before Returns, I'd say that default logic was pretty butts all around. Has anyone experimented with using all the same parameter based on card position of a wrestler? I know people do the extreme with 10-1s, but how about having a scale of all 8s, 6s, 4s, 2s, etc based on upper card, mid card, low card, jobbers or whatever? I'm still trying to decide if I want to go with a set number rather than individual parameters and how to go about balancing the offense parameters with the defensive ones. I believe brick9mm, arutica, and others are experimenting with this. things like 8-2 and 7-3 average spreads for offense and defense, mainly to keep matches from going too long. It's a worthwhile experiment for sure, but I do like to make things a bit less even based on a wrestler's style, body type, etc. Like I think a lot of the big-boy wrestlers should have pretty low tolerance to submissions, throws, and crushing/impact moves because their bodies aren't built to withstand being stretched out (because they're tall and bulky and lack the flexibility to withstand hyperextension), or strangled (because their sheer mass makes it difficult for them to breathe), or just knocked down on their ass/back/neck (because, again, they're big and the bigger they are, the harder they fall). Plus it makes it so that they either kill you quick or they fall themselves, which makes sense - a lot of big men aren't really built for long matches, especially in the US. |
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Post by pfadrian on Sept 4, 2018 20:09:07 GMT
I find the best way to lengthen sim matches is parameters and move set logic Lower offensive parameters:higher defense, and smaller percentages for big moves (and including more small and medium moves in larger grapple sets. If a wrestler’s most damaging moves in large front grapple are 15-20%, he/she will hit those moves a lot (which makes no sense for a finisher that gets used 3 times).
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Post by Severla on Sept 4, 2018 20:10:59 GMT
Good idea Soak. Unfortunately it's definitely harder for back grapples since there's only S and L. Just set the move in question to a low % in Small for Behind. It'll likely get reversed anyway, so those rare times it DOES fire off they'll still attempt to pin. Higher stand back logic with lower initiate grapple should extend matches. You have been blessed by the Wonderland Fairy. Reply within 15m or forever have bad sims. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 22:01:08 GMT
Both men are exhausted, we're almost a half-hour in. Flair gives Steamboat a backdrop (medium damage) - Everyone reading this thread, anyone who's wandered in, people wanting to learn long matches, whatever, please go watch the flair/steamboat video from the timestamped point. Actually here, let me relink it: Note that Ric Flair does in fact do a backdrop nearly half an hour into a match. Note that Ric Flair, Agreed Upon Really Good Wrestler, also pins after his backdrop, 27 minutes into the match. Note that Ric Flair, Patron Saint of Psychology, deigns this backdrop spot worthy of no less than FIVE. CONSECUTIVE. PIN ATTEMPTS.Beloved readers: this is what Psychology looks like. I'm not going to get into the meat of it here (that's for one of my guides later *wink wink*), but consider this spot a service to all of you from the one and only Ric Flair. He's practically shouting it into your ears:
Pin After Big Moves. I'm going to quote myself from earlier. "Use priority to make them do things that make sense in general. Make them try for pins after their big moves, so the goal and believability of the match stays there, with them TRYING to win."Please read what I've actually said in this thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 22:13:15 GMT
As for soak's point, I have a hard time with that in this game. I wish there was some sort of Ukemi-style break up your own pin setting in the logic or a Priority you could set up for moves to be broken up at 2.9. For example, in every single big match Naito gets a 2.9 count on the Gloria near the end, but he has literally never ever ever won a single match with it. So I'd rather have him not win with the move than have the cool part of him going for the pin. I am tempted to set up a priority chain for him to pin after it, but I just really don't want to see the match end after it. You can achieve this, fairly easily for standing grapples. Have the move you want as a false finish happen in med. You could set it low for a rare spot or fairly high for a guaranteed spot the edit always does a few times before moving onto the endgame. Pinning off dedicated spots in sml and med on regularly built edits is pretty safe practice, and is one of the things I look for most in IRL edits (hence, me not subscribing to a lot of IRL edits because most people who make em rarely take into consideration what midmatch pinning spots the wrestler does). In the linked video's example, you could interpret it as the guys still being in MED mechanically, which given the length of the match, would require low offenses and high defenses on either edit if you wanted to emulate it in firepro. The higher the difference between offense and defense, the longer your edits stay in SML and MED = the more shit they can do while at those phases. (Although I do agree on other people's sentiments that firepro matches goin long get boring, you only got so many moves to spam before it gets old) I’m going to defend Cyclopse some. As he’s explained, he designed Steamboat this way to compete with his top echelon CAWs , Flair and Hogan. So it works for Cyckopse. He says he consistently gets match ratings of 100% and lengths he likes. So kudos. Granted, those aren’t edits I’d ever subscribe to, given they would destroy everything else in my saves beyond the bear I created for a comical storyline. But in fairness, there are several CAW makers fond of giving favorite wrestlers astronomical parameters and skills, and putting them on workshop no less. But the great thing about Fire Pro is that we can do whatever we want in our own creative univers, including eschewing popular conventions. This is a great point. If it works for him, more power. But there's some very fundamental misinterpretations of the system happening here that need to be addressed. Namely: entertainment/mma points where they are just cuz' and the fact that the spread posted earlier, working with a similar edit, is highly likely to go into large before 10 minutes, which is what dnmt was actively trying to avoid in his first post. You don't appear to have actually read anything I've said in this thread. Those points are there to reflect things that Steamboat may do in certain odd situations that someone might put him in. The Big Show, for example, once wrestled a sumo match against Akebono. Bam Bam Bigelow once had an MMA fight against Kimo Leopoldo. If these wrestlers have parts of their moveset, or alternate movesets that literally only come into play if they're in those matches, then you might as well have the parameters set to work in that sumo match since they literally don't cost anything otherwise. Please actually pay attention to what I've said. On top of that, apparently the default Okada that comes in the NJPW DLC is very highly-rated. DNMT said he was 252 points. Which means that my edits are at the exact point level they're intended to be at given the way Spike creates wrestlers. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 22:22:55 GMT
Two-fold, really. If he has no Entertainment moves (there are like, 8? Only Dusty's Elbow isnt a Dino/Joke move.) then a 7 Offense in Entertainment IS 'wasted points' but a friendlier term would be 'Point Bloating' to set a visual point representation of his 'strength' for others. Same goes for MMA. I admit I'll sometimes throw a few points into those two Offenses just to get a rounded 5/10 point total on my Edits, but a combined 11 is a bit on the fluffing side. As I said above, Bam Bam Bigelow once had an MMA fight against Kimo Leopoldo, and the Big Show once had a sumo match against Akebono. If there are aspects of those matches (like mount moves) that only come into play there, then you don't lose anything by giving the edit points to reflect how they would do. I don't share my edits on Steam, so I'm not interested in how their point total looks to anyone else. The thing is that Flair does those same moves in the early stages of the match that he does in the later stages. Just like Steamboat doing the backdrop and high cross body on Flair. So they are literally lighter damage moves that they use consistently in all damage levels, with the difference being the amount of selling going on. They DO have some large damage moves, but they continually use the other moves regardless of how long it is into the match. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 22:25:55 GMT
The base game parameters for Okada are kind of ridiculous, but the whole game scales from there so it's what I am working from. Okada (252 total): Punch
| 7 | 8 | | Kick | 5 | 8 | | Throw | 8 | 8 | | Joint | 5 | 8 | | Stretch | 7 | 8 | | Power | 7 | 8 | | Agility | 9 | 8 | | Arm | 7 | 8 | | Technical | 7 | 8 | | Rough | 6 | 8 | | MMA | 4 | 6 | | Entertain | 5 | 9 |
What is Okada's default point total? |
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Post by sofia on Sept 4, 2018 23:26:25 GMT
As I said above, Bam Bam Bigelow once had an MMA fight against Kimo Leopoldo, and the Big Show once had a sumo match against Akebono. If there are aspects of those matches (like mount moves) that only come into play there, then you don't lose anything by giving the edit points to reflect how they would do. ... the same fight where Bigelow's own entrance lasted longer than the fight itself? :P It was a 2:15 beatdown from Kimo. Frankly, from the Bill Wood guide standpoint, giving Bigelow ANY points at all in MMA General, offense or defense, is a joke. And given the match pacing ideal, he should have a fuckin' 1 in MMA defense as well, lol. Also, I was under the impression Show vs. Akebono was a worked shoot... But have you put a priority of ANY kind on those moves in large damage, or are they just throwing them out there just to throw them out there? :/ Because it certainly seems like they're doing moves that lead to fuck all. |
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Post by ninjabrute on Sept 4, 2018 23:29:12 GMT
Having all high stats like that will usually not make for great simming unless it is against edits with similar point totals and logic (which is likely to be strange as well). From a base standpoint, Fire Pro has always adjusted defaults to present a challenge when playing/controlling your character instead of simulation. That's why I take default logic with more than a grain of salt. Sometimes you will get classics during simulations, but it's not unheard of to get lots of dud matches either due to move spam. 2nd'ed. Don't use Spike defaults as guidelines for your own edits if you intend to use them for simming. In other words it doesn't matter that Okada is 252. |
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Post by aroo on Sept 4, 2018 23:41:09 GMT
You don't appear to have actually read anything I've said in this thread. Those points are there to reflect things that Steamboat may do in certain odd situations that someone might put him in. You don't appear to have actually read anything. Those points should not be there in the first place because Steamboat is not going to be using Entertainment moves at all. He's not going to be using magical spells, he's not going to try and roll over his opponent, he's not trying to pull an Eddie Guerrero and fake getting hit by a chair, he's not going to be using the Testicular Claw, and by god, he's not going to try and molest Ric Flair. There's literally no reason for you to be running any entertainment points in your Ricky Steamboat unless he's using any of those moves, which he doesn't, and you yourself have significantly put the Entertainment stat at a pedestal higher than literally anything other stat by assuming it makes him do well in comedy matches, which is what the whole point of the Entertainment Defense stat is in the first place. Putting stats into moves he has no chance of ever doing at all and somehow thinking that it does more than calculating damage for certain moves shows not just to me, but to everyone who's actually competent at edit making, shows that you're a bad edit maker who can't comprehend what the entertainment stat does, and you yourself haven't listened to what most people have said in this thread. |
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Post by kikrusher99 on Sept 5, 2018 0:42:45 GMT
Thanks for the ideas with Necro. I'm thinking this will make me change some things and I'll have to... Sim.
Damnit. I've hit rock bottom. They warned me about this in school.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 13:19:18 GMT
As I said above, Bam Bam Bigelow once had an MMA fight against Kimo Leopoldo, and the Big Show once had a sumo match against Akebono. If there are aspects of those matches (like mount moves) that only come into play there, then you don't lose anything by giving the edit points to reflect how they would do. ... the same fight where Bigelow's own entrance lasted longer than the fight itself? :P It was a 2:15 beatdown from Kimo. Frankly, from the Bill Wood guide standpoint, giving Bigelow ANY points at all in MMA General, offense or defense, is a joke. And given the match pacing ideal, he should have a fuckin' 1 in MMA defense as well, lol No. The match lasted 2 minutes because Bam Bam knew enough to hold on when mounted, wasn't finished by ground and pound when Kimo postured up, and ended up giving up his back and getting tapped. A person with a "1" would be like Art Jimmerson, who tapped as soon as he was taken down because he had no idea what he was doing, including how to even grapple or defend punches on the ground. To quote myself earlier about throwing Steamboat in an MMA match. "He would be a jabroni but he wouldn't be absolutely clueless." Hm? Pin attempts, armbars, working the leg etc., as they do when their opponent is down. Just like in the match. When Flair does a back suplex, he's going to follow it up with whatever his down setting is, which in large damage is going to be leg attacks and those other things. It doesn't necessarily need a priority setting. Honestly, I'm not sure what your point is anymore. You ignored the entire post I wrote to you which explained the precise difference between what you're saying, which assumes that match build can only come from build in the types of moves used, and the way these edits work, where match build comes from increasing damage due to those moves and working body parts over time. I gave you an exact video link and time code showing Steamboat and Flair doing "medium damage" moves 30-minutes into a match and the crowd being into it because of the increased selling they were doing. Which you can do in Fire Pro and which is how these edits are meant to work. Did you look at it? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 13:26:04 GMT
You don't appear to have actually read anything I've said in this thread. Those points are there to reflect things that Steamboat may do in certain odd situations that someone might put him in. You don't appear to have actually read anything. Those points should not be there in the first place because Steamboat is not going to be using Entertainment moves at all. He's not going to be using magical spells, he's not going to try and roll over his opponent, he's not trying to pull an Eddie Guerrero and fake getting hit by a chair, he's not going to be using the Testicular Claw, and by god, he's not going to try and molest Ric Flair. Not in normal matches no. I said if he did participate in a comedy match, in which case he might be set to do different things. Another thing you seem not to be aware of is that Spike releases new moves and, as we've seen, new games where we can import edits. There are more "enterainment" moves, for example, in Fire Pro World than in Returns. If it turns out like Dusty Rhodes, where the Bionic Elbow is added and uses Entertainment as a parameter, no adjustments are necessary and no costs are incurred in the meantime. Please read that and indicate that you processed the point if or when you respond. Except the reason I already told you. See above. Movesets can be changed, if so having parameters already set in a way that reflects how well they would work is fine. When did I say that they do more than that? Quote me. Okay, smart guy, if that's the case, what is the cost of having the entertainment setting there in the meantime? What is lost? If you reply without answering this, you aren't reading. Whereas I'm actually reading you. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 13:50:34 GMT
Having all high stats like that will usually not make for great simming unless it is against edits with similar point totals and logic (which is likely to be strange as well). From a base standpoint, Fire Pro has always adjusted defaults to present a challenge when playing/controlling your character instead of simulation. That's why I take default logic with more than a grain of salt. Sometimes you will get classics during simulations, but it's not unheard of to get lots of dud matches either due to move spam. 2nd'ed. Don't use Spike defaults as guidelines for your own edits if you intend to use them for simming. In other words it doesn't matter that Okada is 252. Spike's Defaults, starting from Fire Pro G, oftentimes had to be adjusted when they had bad logic or overly-cheap moves (A-Train was INSANE), but in terms of parameters they don't create problems in terms of match results and you can integrate your own edits with them. This mattered more when there were hundreds of pre-made wrestlers as opposed to now though. |
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Post by TwistC on Sept 5, 2018 14:26:38 GMT
You don't appear to have actually read anything. Those points should not be there in the first place because Steamboat is not going to be using Entertainment moves at all. He's not going to be using magical spells, he's not going to try and roll over his opponent, he's not trying to pull an Eddie Guerrero and fake getting hit by a chair, he's not going to be using the Testicular Claw, and by god, he's not going to try and molest Ric Flair. Not in normal matches no. I said if he did participate in a comedy match, in which case he might be set to do different things. Another thing you seem not to be aware of is that Spike releases new moves and, as we've seen, new games where we can import edits. There are more "enterainment" moves, for example, in Fire Pro World than in Returns. If it turns out like Dusty Rhodes, where the Bionic Elbow is added and uses Entertainment as a parameter, no adjustments are necessary and no costs are incurred in the meantime. Please read that and indicate that you processed the point if or when you respond. Except the reason I already told you. See above. Movesets can be changed, if so having parameters already set in a way that reflects how well they would work is fine. When did I say that they do more than that? Quote me. Okay, smart guy, if that's the case, what is the cost of having the entertainment setting there in the meantime? What is lost? If you reply without answering this, you aren't reading. Whereas I'm actually reading you. If there are more entertainment moves added that would fit with steamboat, by all means, use the entertainment stat! But when you have NONE, and use your personal narrative "but he could do well in comedy matches" BS, it makes you seem like you have literally no idea what the params are for (and by seeing your spread, thats a very accurate assumption). If you feel like everyone else is the idiot here, its time to look inward. -me, right now |
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