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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 6:07:50 GMT
Rather than type it out, I just did screenshots and put them all in one image. This is Ricky Steamboat. You might notice that he has strike exchanges set to "disabled." This is because I already had Flair and Steamboat chopping the exact amount that I wanted from Fire Pro Returns and the strike exchanges made it too much. So I either had to alter all their striking and weak grapple logic or just turn strike exchanges off. :) Also, I TOTALLY FORGOT to mention, ROPE BREAKS! When I wanted Flair and Steamboat to go 40-minutes, I would always have rope breaks on. You can also turn off the outside count to let them spend more time fighting out there as well. I will add that to the previous post.  1. Those stats are ridiculously overblown. If you want long matches, do lower offense to defense. Having both edits have very high offense does nothing but make them hit each other just as hard as their own defenses (a 10-10 vs 10-10 match will look the same as a 1-1 vs 1-1 match) Huh? His offense has some 8's and several 5's and 7's, his defense is 8's with some 9's and he has Guts and the highest possible spirit and back and leg endurance. His ability to take punishment is far higher than his ability to dish it out. Also, my main event edits are made to consistently beat my midcard guys. I set the stats etc so I get the results I like. There is no such thing as "wasting points." You don't lose the ability to put points into something else because you have a 7 there. The game gives you enough of a cap to put everything to 10 if you wanted. Your statement doesn't compute. A 7 in entertainment for me means that if he chose to wrestle a comedy-style match, he'd be decent at it. Just because someone doesn't do something in the ring doesn't mean that they're awful at it. Likewise, Steamboat has a "4" for MMA overall meaning that if for some reason you put him in the Octagon as part of an angle, he would be a jabroni but he wouldn't be absolutely clueless either, in the way that a random lady out of the crowd would be. Steamboat was a state amateur wrestling champion and he knows what an armbar and leglock are. Check his biography. See above. For me, it's 100% about whether they work the matches the way I want. I already have a mix of wins/losses and an amount of chops that is right in the sweet spot. I'd rather disable it then undo all the weak grapple and standing logic for both Flair and Steamboat. They already chop each other back and forth at points during the matches anyway. I don't have "insanely high offense." Sorry. A large part of Steamboat's attack is working the arm with armbars, chickenwings, the ground belly hold, which I have set at 5. His suplexes are a 7. Secondly, please review this match as one example. They don't have "big damage power bomb time." They use suplexes, shoulderblocks, takedowns, roll-ups etc throughout the entire match. Steamboats big moves are his flying attack, which he goes to later and in critical damage. Ric Flair's "big damage time" is when he viciously starts attacking the leg. That's reflected in both their logics, as Flair goes to the leg in critical damage just like Steamboat goes to high-flying time. What delineates the stages of the match is how much they sell those same spots. Check the sequence from 20 minutes to 26 minutes in the match. It's run the ropes for shoulderblock, chop, back suplex etc., but they get up slower. In the edit matches, Flair's arms start to droop, Steamboat slows down, they do the "rolling and holding body part sell" etc. Their finishers don't happen in small damage. But, one of the keys to having an enjoyable long match for me is that they occasionally end quickly as well, so you're engaged the whole time, knowing that they might go 14-minutes or 44. Regarding "the same moves." It doesn't come off as the same moves when they switch between 20 moves instead of 3 or 4 (as Alex Thompson does and edits who are bad workers). And as I said, both wrestler's "big damage" attack isn't through big grapple moves. They just didn't have them. It's through Steamboat going to the top for his chops or Flair's "now we go to school" leg attack. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 6:40:13 GMT
I know you didn't ask for any logic critiques, but... It's because these edits already do what I want. I provided it for OP who, I assume, wanted to see how different people get the results they like. That's interesting to note and I may experiment with it. In the meantime, I didn't like how it looked in the Steamboat/Flair matches I was getting. They do the right amount of chopping as is and the static back and forth of it wasn't appealing to me compared to them walking around and nailing each other as a sort of stiff-and-realistic-looking glue between their other spots. As I've said, the game just doesn't have main event wrestlers win often enough against midcarders for my taste. By going high on the main event guys, it gives me room to have midcarders and jobbers who have enough of a stats/parameters/etc gap between them so that the midcarders lose to the main eventers and beat the jobbers and so on. One of the other reasons why you guys may have different general point totals then I use is that I balanced my guys against the default roster in Fire Pro G and Fire Pro Returns. And people like Inoki are 291 points. Of course, even I didn't go that far, but I intended the guys I made who feuded with Inoki to be able to have competitive matches with him. I haven't watched Okada and Omega yet. High defense lets my best workers "carry" bad workers to good matches by forcing the match to be longer and getting variety from their own moveset (while the not-so-good guy just repeats his spots). I only limit this to guys like Flair, Steamboat, Hart and Shawn Michaels who actually have been known to carry bad workers. A large portion of his offense is rated 5. His big moves which are supposed to be able to actually get wins, (flying chop, flying body press etc) are the 8 parameters. Likewise his small packages etc actually end matches against Flair, Savage etc., so his technical is an 8. Huh? Do you mean bodyslams and armdrags in higher priorities in late match? Steamboat's arm drag is linked to an armbar in my priority, so late match when the opponent's arms are dragging, it's a potential match ender. Also, Flair's matches, while incredible, didn't vary in psychology. He had certain things he did which got the crowd going, and he did them over and over (yelling "Shut up fat boy" to make the crowd boo him, the "now we go to school!" late match leg attack, brass knuckles and nut shots, getting slammed off the top, begging off, which you can do much better now with the new logic). That's one reason why Bret Hart hates him so much (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaPqFYoJ50A) and why Vince made Flair and Savage go back out in 1992 and do their world title match a second time in front of the same crowd. Vince wanted Savage to sell his injured leg and he and Flair just did the normal Flair match instead. Ironically though, this makes his style much easier to reflect in Fire Pro. Bret is way harder. You could bump it up in small and medium. If we could have him whip Flair into the turnbuckle for the Flair Flip and Flair Flop, or have Steamboat skin the cat etc., I'd definitely put it higher. |
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Post by sofia on Sept 4, 2018 7:47:34 GMT
As I've said, the game just doesn't have main event wrestlers win often enough against midcarders for my taste. By going high on the main event guys, it gives me room to have midcarders and jobbers who have enough of a stats/parameters/etc gap between them so that the midcarders lose to the main eventers and beat the jobbers and so on. One of the other reasons why you guys may have different general point totals then I use is that I balanced my guys against the default roster in Fire Pro G and Fire Pro Returns. And people like Inoki are 291 points. Of course, even I didn't go that far, but I intended the guys I made who feuded with Inoki to be able to have competitive matches with him. I mean, for people like Inoki, you have to consider that 60 points of that 291 point total is tied up in his Submission critical and Toukon special ability. Taking out the special abilities, Steamboat is only SLIGHTLY below Inoki in your metrics -- 222 vs. 231 if my math is right. Furthermore, Steamboat has literally no weaknesses defensively, outside of a 4 in MMA, a parameter that generally won't be used in 80s style American pro wrestling. At the very least, the iron fortress that is Antonio Inoki cannot take a lariat (since, well, he got KTFO'd by Hogan's Axe Bomber). I'd really recommend looking at Phil's spreadsheet if you're feeling like getting really OCD about the default guys' stats. Seeing just how many points are eaten up by big tier-2 and tier-3 abilities like Choshu's "Reborn," Tsuruta's "Monster," etc.; and by criticals; helps you to understand just how wrestlers are balanced against one another. But hey, if you want to play favorites that badly, feel free. I just think, personally, that it's patently ridiculous for Steamboat to be THAT high. I mean... that's exactly why I try to avoid matches that go much more over 20 minutes in-game time in Fire Pro. There's just not enough move variety there for it to avoid turning into one or both guys fucking around in large damage endlessly, doing the same moves over and over. Or worse, doing moves that have absolutely no meaning to the match and are just there to extend things artificially by way of not inherently going for the finisher. I guess it can be chalked up to a difference in what we look for in the game, but I don't see how prolonging a match like that is exciting. That's all good and well, but high offense and high defense cancel one another out somewhat. So what you end up doing is creating a situation where the previously mentioned endless fucking around is the only way to artificially extend a match. Which is why I made the comment about having essentially two versions of a character, one for normal match length and one for those epic-length matches. Fair enough, I wasn't sure if that was what you were doing with it or not. Do you have a priority for the bodyslam on large damage? For example, using it as a setup for a top rope move like his diving body press. Possibly a second prio to act as a fallback for when he's not in the corner, even if it's just like, bodyslam to elbowdrop or stomp. If not... then you run the risk of basically doing a body slam with nothing following it up. I've tried to break myself of that habit because, thinking about it, it's kind of a pointless move at that point, and I like for everything in large and ND to have a reason to be done rather than to bloat the match with a lot of filler moves. Putting it down to 15% is reasonable if it's a heavier wrestler who does not really run the ropes much, but otherwise, at 15%, it basically means you won't get much of a chance for a move to an opponent coming off the ropes that could be used to set up something else. Like a flying cross body for instance, or if you're trying to avoid any RNG pins (which, based on the high percentage for the small package hold, you are not) then something like an arm drag that can lead to his ground finisher, or just another big impact move that could happen late enough in the match that it puts Steamboat in a state where his AI goes, "time to catch my breath." I just think it goes against the overall flow of American pro wrestling, especially so with a guy who was known for being quite quick. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 8:44:26 GMT
I mean, for people like Inoki, you have to consider that 60 points of that 291 point total is tied up in his Submission critical and Toukon special ability. Taking out the special abilities, Steamboat is only SLIGHTLY below Inoki in your metrics -- 222 vs. 231 if my math is right. If you remove his special ability, set his entertainment and MMA to 1 which is what other people, do, I believe he's 204. Regardless, the Steamboat I'm interested in recreating is the one who was NWA Champion and pinned Ric Flair, Randy Savage and Mitsuharu Misawa clean. That's a very strong competitor. Yes, definitely. In the beginning I said HIGH defense in all capital letters. I WANT Steamboat to be able to carry people to long matches. It gives me the results I want. Those abilities eat up points for a reason. They're not random, they have a huge effect on match results. I do like Ricky Steamboat, but he's made to get results similar to his run from 87 to 89 when matched against the default roster from Fire Pro Returns and my other edits, which is what he does and I'm happy with it. It's not because I want to "play favorites really badly." For reference, on my game, IIRC, Ric Flair is 256 points, Hulk Hogan is 256 points, Stone Cold Steve Austin and the Undertaker are 252 points, Sting is 250 points, The Rock is 248, Shawn Michaels 246, etc... Different people have different philosophies on point totals. Some people think that it reflects a type of overall strength and must be at a certain level, others don't care as long as the results are accurate. I'm of the latter camp and after a lot of years of tinkering it gives me results I like. It doesn't mean that I or anyone else is "ridiculous." Okay, please watch this example starting at 27:00 into the match. Both men are exhausted, we're almost a half-hour in. Flair gives Steamboat a backdrop (medium damage), a double-arm suplex (generally medium damage), soon after gives him a vertical suplex on the outside (medium damage move), Flair tries to vertical suplex him in again (medium damage move), Steamboat counters and chops and punches him, misses a big chop off the Irish Whip, Flair goes for a high cross body and they both fall out. They aren't any "impressive, huge damage" grapple moves in that sequence (until Steamboat hits a superplex which I have in his moveset at large damage). You can see they're doing medium damage and chops, high cross body pin attempts, etc. Things they also do in the beginning. The difference is that both men are exhausted and selling hugely. The variety of moves combined with Flair's arms getting hurt and Steamboat eventually slowing down and selling his legs, as well as the fact that the match can end on any one of the near-falls, is what keeps the tension as well as progresses it to a dramatic near end. Where Flair attacks the leg or Steamboat either gets the submission with the chicken-wing or starts hitting his flying chops. If you only do big grapple moves, then yes it does get boring after 20-minutes. I found that this style of match is enjoyable for me to watch all the way up to 40-minutes or more. The audience in the video seems to agree. Defense is not just parameters. A lot of it comes from skills. He also has Guts (making him really, REALLY hard to tap out), max body and leg endurance, max spirit and recovery, etc. I showed a video above and explained why the match stays interesting and also goes along with Flair and Steamboat's actual working style. I'm not sure what the "artificial" thing is about. We do a lot of artificial things in Fire Pro. We use heads and costume pieces that aren't made for that actual wrestler as a way to artificially make them look like the wrestler we want. I use logic, parameters etc. as a way to make the match look like the actual pro wrestling matches I want. I'm not sure what the problem is there. I don't think I have the bodyslam linked to anything, guys just bodyslam each other all the time in matches. And once the opponent is down, he will always follow it up with a pin or submission hold or splash or something similar. Oh, the flying cross body and those moves are also done when the opponent is standing dazed in the center of the ring and so on. So he does get to do a good amount of that. But if someone else wants him to Irish Whip more, especially in small damage, I would understand that. The fundamental difference I think is that you're focusing on bigger and bigger moves being the main source of match progress, and you are right and I totally agree, that hits a brick wall at around 20-minutes and gets boring, because there aren't enough of those moves to keep it from getting repetitive, and they just either get the pin or they don't. I know because a lot of my other edits have those types of matches. But with these "great workers," I'm using the wrestlers wearing each other down as the major source of match progress, which when combined with the right other things, can make a far longer match be entertaining....and that actually, is very relevant to the OP, so I'll make it bigger in case anyone is scrolling through. This has turned out to be a good discussion. |
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Post by aroo on Sept 4, 2018 10:28:37 GMT
A 7 in entertainment for me means that if he chose to wrestle a comedy-style match, he'd be decent at it. uhh no, he's not going to be using any of that entertainment stats if you don't put any moves that deal damage based off of entertainment on him, and as far as my limited knowledge of wrestling is concerned he's not trying to fuck a guy right in the middle of the ring. |
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Post by soak314 on Sept 4, 2018 10:51:02 GMT
Both men are exhausted, we're almost a half-hour in. Flair gives Steamboat a backdrop (medium damage) - Everyone reading this thread, anyone who's wandered in, people wanting to learn long matches, whatever, please go watch the flair/steamboat video from the timestamped point. Actually here, let me relink it: Note that Ric Flair does in fact do a backdrop nearly half an hour into a match. Note that Ric Flair, Agreed Upon Really Good Wrestler, also pins after his backdrop, 27 minutes into the match. Note that Ric Flair, Patron Saint of Psychology, deigns this backdrop spot worthy of no less than FIVE. CONSECUTIVE. PIN ATTEMPTS.Beloved readers: this is what Psychology looks like. I'm not going to get into the meat of it here (that's for one of my guides later *wink wink*), but consider this spot a service to all of you from the one and only Ric Flair. He's practically shouting it into your ears:
Pin After Big Moves. *** but yeah cycklops that param spread is kinda whack you're still treatin params like they're rpg stats go read up on the guides heres links criticalclub.com/thread/76/thedenizen-carlzillas-original-guide-updatedcriticalclub.com/thread/79/basic-edit-tips-tricks |
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Post by pfadrian on Sept 4, 2018 12:51:10 GMT
I’m going to defend Cyclopse some. As he’s explained, he designed Steamboat this way to compete with his top echelon CAWs , Flair and Hogan. So it works for Cyckopse. He says he consistently gets match ratings of 100% and lengths he likes. So kudos.
Granted, those aren’t edits I’d ever subscribe to, given they would destroy everything else in my saves beyond the bear I created for a comical storyline. But in fairness, there are several CAW makers fond of giving favorite wrestlers astronomical parameters and skills, and putting them on workshop no less.
But the great thing about Fire Pro is that we can do whatever we want in our own creative univers, including eschewing popular conventions.
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Post by dnmt on Sept 4, 2018 15:47:09 GMT
This is a lot of good info for me to sort through and I am leaning more towards cycklops approach as his group of Steamboat/Flair/Hogan is similar to my group of Okada/Omega/Naito/Tanahashi. I need top tier edits that can work 20-30 minutes matches against each other. Having a diverse move set with a good Logic set up behind it makes these matches super fun. I don't suffer from non-stop big moves near the end and the matches usually feature 1 or 2 finishers at the very most.
As for soak's point, I have a hard time with that in this game. I wish there was some sort of Ukemi-style break up your own pin setting in the logic or a Priority you could set up for moves to be broken up at 2.9. For example, in every single big match Naito gets a 2.9 count on the Gloria near the end, but he has literally never ever ever won a single match with it. So I'd rather have him not win with the move than have the cool part of him going for the pin. I am tempted to set up a priority chain for him to pin after it, but I just really don't want to see the match end after it.
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Post by LankyLefty17 on Sept 4, 2018 16:11:13 GMT
The parameter "tiers" is an interesting conversation of its own, but feels separate from the original question. You can absolutely tier out your edits without giving them 250 points- but to each their own.
For me the key is, a 30 minute match is just hard to pull off and still be entertaining. Even in actual pro wrestling, it can turn into a crap shoot. For every Flair/Steamboat there is a HHH/Steiner, which is why I tend to lean as others have mentioned to the 15-20 min mark. My matches that run longer feel broken, like the edits don't know how to finish off the match. But if long matches are your jam, its probably important to call out that there are multiple factors working together that get you a longer match. How to make that match interesting is probably a question for someone smarter- but here are my thoughts:
Parameters This really is simple math. Offensive parameters dictate how much damage is done when performing a move that uses that stat, defense dictates the amount of damage taken. If you keep offensive stats lower than defensive stats, it will take longer to drain health. Also obviously, the two wrestlers will need to be on the same level. If you have one dude with 1-5 parameters against a dude with 5-10, its not going to work as well.
Moveset Different moves have different damage qualities. You can prolong matches by filling out the move set with weaker grapples. Filling "Attitude Era Guy" with a Stunner, Rock Bottom, Pedigree, and Olympic Slam will sap health quicker than if you only have 1-2 big moves throughout.
Logic This got mentioned a bunch earlier. If you want to prolong a match, keep logic settings for sml and med moves at large damage. Philosophies on how you progress from each damage state so the match flows properly is a different (but important subject), but the less often your edit does big damaging moves, the less damage they dole out, and the longer the match will go...
Pin/Submission Logic This is obviously important. If you don't prio any moves to pins or submissions (and dont't have flash pins set), your match will literally go on forever. Set up a ton of flash pins, the match ends probably quicker than you want. There is a sweet spot that generally takes into account everything above to get pin attempts at logical points in the match. I've found that playing around with this goes a long way to dictate match pacing, which makes sense since it literally controls when the match ends.
Skills This can trump everything else. Hardbody and Guts are skills that literally make it harder to pin and submit. If you like how your edit is, and just want something for an "epic" main event match, this a way to stretch it out without overhauling an edit that is typically in the 15-20 min range. Obvious point- both guys would need the skill to create the proper back and forth.
A combination of all of these will lengthen out the match- getting it to be "interesting" probably falls with personal taste.
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Post by Severla on Sept 4, 2018 16:20:26 GMT
Two-fold, really. If he has no Entertainment moves (there are like, 8? Only Dusty's Elbow isnt a Dino/Joke move.) then a 7 Offense in Entertainment IS 'wasted points' but a friendlier term would be 'Point Bloating' to set a visual point representation of his 'strength' for others. Same goes for MMA. I admit I'll sometimes throw a few points into those two Offenses just to get a rounded 5/10 point total on my Edits, but a combined 11 is a bit on the fluffing side. Also, the talk on 'Big Moves' doesnt mean 'Big Impressive Moves' like a powerbomb, but rather just saying 'Large Damage Moves.' If Flair has a suplex in one of his Large Categories, it's one of his 'Big Moves' in his inventory. I also parrot the 'give Steamboat more Hammer Throw %' of Maik. Even 25% still has it's rarities but since it leads to (potentially) six other moves, it's worth keeping between 20-30%. Even a Giant-sized Edit would want like 20-25% (but wouldnt have Run moves in his Irish Whip is all). Has anyone experimented with using all the same parameter based on card position of a wrestler? I know people do the extreme with 10-1s, but how about having a scale of all 8s, 6s, 4s, 2s, etc based on upper card, mid card, low card, jobbers or whatever? I'm still trying to decide if I want to go with a set number rather than individual parameters and how to go about balancing the offense parameters with the defensive ones. I've actually pondered this, but not rapidly used/tested it. Currently my Kira D'Amon edit has a flat defense setting, and I know a few other known Community edits with similar setups. You can easily drop the 'obvious weakness' points (say, if you want them notably weaker to submissions) on higher-card edits at that point. In Kira's case she has flat because her logic is not potentially dangerous to HP (shes a Spirit Nuke) so I need her to survive longer to get rolling. However, lowering defense to strengthen the card positioning is probably a fine idea. Two mid-carders will have their similar setup match, whereas one of those midcarders vs a main eventer would favor the main eventer by way of the midcarder getting worn down faster. Logic still applies (so the midcarder could win), but it certainly tips the scales. |
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Post by dnmt on Sept 4, 2018 19:24:59 GMT
The base game parameters for Okada are kind of ridiculous, but the whole game scales from there so it's what I am working from. Okada (252 total): Punch
| 7 | 8 | | Kick | 5 | 8 | | Throw | 8 | 8 | | Joint | 5 | 8 | | Stretch | 7 | 8 | | Power | 7 | 8 | | Agility | 9 | 8 | | Arm | 7 | 8 | | Technical | 7 | 8 | | Rough | 6 | 8 | | MMA | 4 | 6 | | Entertain | 5 | 9 |
I ended up removing 5 points from offense and added 5 to defense, so there's even more 9s in defense now. It isn't an ideal solution, but it's the only way I'm stopping him (same thing applies to Omega) from getting into "L Damage" 5 minutes into the match. My CPU Logic ensures Strong O moves aren't attempted until the L Damage section, but with those default parameters guys were so good on offense it only took 4-5 minutes to get their opponents worn down to L Damage anyway. With these crazy high defensive parameters and my Logic set up a certain way, I am not seeing Strong O moves until at least the 10 minute mark, and matches are easily going over 20 if not 30+ minutes. |
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Post by soak314 on Sept 4, 2018 19:27:11 GMT
As for soak's point, I have a hard time with that in this game. I wish there was some sort of Ukemi-style break up your own pin setting in the logic or a Priority you could set up for moves to be broken up at 2.9. For example, in every single big match Naito gets a 2.9 count on the Gloria near the end, but he has literally never ever ever won a single match with it. So I'd rather have him not win with the move than have the cool part of him going for the pin. I am tempted to set up a priority chain for him to pin after it, but I just really don't want to see the match end after it. You can achieve this, fairly easily for standing grapples. Have the move you want as a false finish happen in med. You could set it low for a rare spot or fairly high for a guaranteed spot the edit always does a few times before moving onto the endgame. Pinning off dedicated spots in sml and med on regularly built edits is pretty safe practice, and is one of the things I look for most in IRL edits (hence, me not subscribing to a lot of IRL edits because most people who make em rarely take into consideration what midmatch pinning spots the wrestler does). In the linked video's example, you could interpret it as the guys still being in MED mechanically, which given the length of the match, would require low offenses and high defenses on either edit if you wanted to emulate it in firepro. The higher the difference between offense and defense, the longer your edits stay in SML and MED = the more shit they can do while at those phases. (Although I do agree on other people's sentiments that firepro matches goin long get boring, you only got so many moves to spam before it gets old) I’m going to defend Cyclopse some. As he’s explained, he designed Steamboat this way to compete with his top echelon CAWs , Flair and Hogan. So it works for Cyckopse. He says he consistently gets match ratings of 100% and lengths he likes. So kudos. Granted, those aren’t edits I’d ever subscribe to, given they would destroy everything else in my saves beyond the bear I created for a comical storyline. But in fairness, there are several CAW makers fond of giving favorite wrestlers astronomical parameters and skills, and putting them on workshop no less. But the great thing about Fire Pro is that we can do whatever we want in our own creative univers, including eschewing popular conventions. This is a great point. If it works for him, more power. But there's some very fundamental misinterpretations of the system happening here that need to be addressed. Namely: entertainment/mma points where they are just cuz' and the fact that the spread posted earlier, working with a similar edit, is highly likely to go into large before 10 minutes, which is what dnmt was actively trying to avoid in his first post. *** Dakkon, I'll get to your tiering question later as I'm about to be late for work, lol. |
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Post by Zealot on Sept 4, 2018 19:30:01 GMT
Having all high stats like that will usually not make for great simming unless it is against edits with similar point totals and logic (which is likely to be strange as well).
From a base standpoint, Fire Pro has always adjusted defaults to present a challenge when playing/controlling your character instead of simulation.
That's why I take default logic with more than a grain of salt. Sometimes you will get classics during simulations, but it's not unheard of to get lots of dud matches either due to move spam.
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Post by dnmt on Sept 4, 2018 19:31:21 GMT
Good idea Soak. Unfortunately it's definitely harder for back grapples since there's only S and L.
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Post by Wonderland on Sept 4, 2018 19:58:50 GMT
Higher stand back logic with lower initiate grapple should extend matches.
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