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Post by Love Wilcox on Sept 3, 2018 16:24:23 GMT
Don't mess with your edits. The answer is a slow ref with a slow count. That will fix all your problems. I have to disagree. A slow count is fine but you’ll want a fastest moving ref. Having a wrestler kick out of a finish 30+ minutes into a match just because the ref is too slow to make it over for the count is irritating as hell. My ref is fast and has a medium count and the majority of my matches are still 20+ minutes. Stick to low offence/high defence and just generally good common sense logic and that’s all you really need. If you’re still having short matches after that it’s either bad RNG or you just need to take another look at your Params and logic. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 17:27:32 GMT
I must respectfully disagree with the suggestion made in a previous post about cranking up the circle opponent percentage; I find it causes a lot of awkward wandering about after a certain point. I said to up circle opponent, weak strikes etc., meaning several things. Includes "stand back" as well. The early stages of the great matches I like have a "feeling out process."  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 17:31:05 GMT
Rather than type it out, I just did screenshots and put them all in one image. This is Ricky Steamboat. You might notice that he has strike exchanges set to "disabled." This is because I already had Flair and Steamboat chopping the exact amount that I wanted from Fire Pro Returns and the strike exchanges made it too much. So I either had to alter all their striking and weak grapple logic or just turn strike exchanges off. :) Also, I TOTALLY FORGOT to mention, ROPE BREAKS! When I wanted Flair and Steamboat to go 40-minutes, I would always have rope breaks on. You can also turn off the outside count to let them spend more time fighting out there as well. I will add that to the previous post.  Those Offensive Parameters seem a bit high to me. Given that most of Steamboat’s big moves use Punch, Agility, Technical, wouldn’t you want to lower those more if aiming to have a longer match? A lot of Steamboat's offense is also suplexes and armlocks, which I have at 7 and 5...for a main event guy in my game, that's pretty low haha. I want my main eventers to beat midcarders fairly consistently, so they end up pretty juiced. It does depend on who you're balancing him against too. Flair and Hogan are my two highest rated wrestlers, and I needed Steamboat to be able to compete with him. |
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Post by pfadrian on Sept 3, 2018 17:54:47 GMT
Don't mess with your edits. The answer is a slow ref with a slow count. That will fix all your problems. The problem with that approach is what I outlined earlier. My edits are getting to the L Damage part of their CPU Logic 5-7 minutes into the match, when in NJPW that happens more around the 10-15 minute mark. And I can only do so much with movesets and logic when I am basing these edits on real life wrestlers. The last thing I want is Okada kicking out of 3 One-Winged Angels because Omega starts hitting them at the 12 minute mark but my referee is too slow. Last night I got a 100%, 31 minute match out of them that ended after the first OWA. |
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Post by pfadrian on Sept 3, 2018 18:00:14 GMT
Don't mess with your edits. The answer is a slow ref with a slow count. That will fix all your problems. The problem with that approach is what I outlined earlier. My edits are getting to the L Damage part of their CPU Logic 5-7 minutes into the match, when in NJPW that happens more around the 10-15 minute mark. And I can only do so much with movesets and logic when I am basing these edits on real life wrestlers. The last thing I want is Okada kicking out of 3 One-Winged Angels because Omega starts hitting them at the 12 minute mark but my referee is too slow. Last night I got a 100%, 31 minute match out of them that ended after the first OWA. Not sure how much you can prevent that. The small and medium damage phases are very short. One thing you can do is only place big moves in the large damage phase AND mix in higher percentages of medium and small damage moves. Though done to excess it can make matches drag. Point is, the best you can do is lower the percentages that big moves may occur to prolong their appearance. |
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Post by pfadrian on Sept 3, 2018 18:04:33 GMT
Those Offensive Parameters seem a bit high to me. Given that most of Steamboat’s big moves use Punch, Agility, Technical, wouldn’t you want to lower those more if aiming to have a longer match? A lot of Steamboat's offense is also suplexes and armlocks, which I have at 7 and 5...for a main event guy in my game, that's pretty low haha. I want my main eventers to beat midcarders fairly consistently, so they end up pretty juiced. It does depend on who you're balancing him against too. Flair and Hogan are my two highest rated wrestlers, and I needed Steamboat to be able to compete with him. I hear you. But what does that do for match ratings? And length? And 237 pts is kind of insane for Ricky Steamboat. |
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Post by pfadrian on Sept 3, 2018 18:19:22 GMT
A lot of Steamboat's offense is also suplexes and armlocks, which I have at 7 and 5...for a main event guy in my game, that's pretty low haha. I want my main eventers to beat midcarders fairly consistently, so they end up pretty juiced. It does depend on who you're balancing him against too. Flair and Hogan are my two highest rated wrestlers, and I needed Steamboat to be able to compete with him. I hear you. But what does that do for match ratings? And length? And 237 pts is kind of insane for Ricky Steamboat. to each his own I guess, but if you have to turn Steamboat into a monster to compete with your Ric Flair edit (and Flair to a monster o compete with Hogan), how about instead giving Hogan and Flair more weaknesses? Flair should definitely have high defensive parameters (or else hardbody skill) because he’s not a particularly powerful offensive guy. He’s got a killer figure-4, or wins with roll-ups (maybe a hidden pair of brass knuckles). Hogan should be weak against agility and technical wrestlers (and I mean defense at 3-4 tops. His breathing and recovery should be normal to low, because Hogan had no endurance for the kinds of matches Flair and Steamboat would do. |
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Post by amsterDAN on Sept 3, 2018 22:38:03 GMT
I must respectfully disagree with the suggestion made in a previous post about cranking up the circle opponent percentage; I find it causes a lot of awkward wandering about after a certain point. I said to up circle opponent, weak strikes etc., meaning several things. Includes "stand back" as well. The early stages of the great matches I like have a "feeling out process." I'm right there with you that matches need a feeling-out process, but the problem is that since you can only set stand back and circle from small damage to the beginning of large damage, and from large damage onward, there isn't much nuance there, so if you have the circle and stand back set super high like in the picture you posted, that takes up a larger portion of the match than I would personally want the feeling-out phase to be. For guys that need a long, thorough feeling-out phase, I'd make most if not all of their small damage moves and even some of the medium moves maneuvers that don't take the opponent off his feet, as opposed to setting his stand back and circle in a way that makes him give the opponent the runaround for half the match. I only set stand back and circle above twenty for cowardly edits who are actively avoiding the fight for large chunks of the match. |
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Post by Nth on Sept 3, 2018 22:46:52 GMT
I use the stand back and circle for a lot of technical guys who are feeling each other out in the opening stages of a match. Bret Hart vs Curt Hennig would often circle each other quite a bit, have a quick exchange and then back off again. That's how I personally work a lot of my matches in the opening stages as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 1:26:21 GMT
A lot of Steamboat's offense is also suplexes and armlocks, which I have at 7 and 5...for a main event guy in my game, that's pretty low haha. I want my main eventers to beat midcarders fairly consistently, so they end up pretty juiced. It does depend on who you're balancing him against too. Flair and Hogan are my two highest rated wrestlers, and I needed Steamboat to be able to compete with him. I hear you. But what does that do for match ratings? And length? And 237 pts is kind of insane for Ricky Steamboat. Yeah, all my main event edits have a lot of points because it was the best way I found to get the game to actually have them win against midcarders. But if you put his entertainment ratings at 1 as most other people do he's about 225. For reference, my Flair and Hogan are 256 each, Undertaker, Austin, Sting, Rock etc are in the 245-250 range. So that's who he's balanced against. Keep in mind also that Steamboat was NWA World Champion and has clean wins over Randy Savage, Ric Flair and Mitsuharu Misawa. He's also my favorite wrestler and has the same birthday as me. :) Oh, regarding the first questions...my Steamboat and Ric Flair are my best creations in over 18 years playing Fire Pro. The matches they have are amazing. They get 100% ratings but the game hands out 100%'s really easily. Important thing is that it's not uncommon at all to have them go 35+ minutes, without being repetitive. The matches have multiple stages, feeling out in the beginning, beating the hell out of each other with chops, Steamboat attacking the arms, Flair cheating, begging...weapons...moves off the top...tons of near falls with small packages, roll ups and so on that legitimately end the match sometimes...Flair going for the leg attack once Steamboat hits critical damage which may not happen for 20+ minutes. My absolute finest work. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 1:51:21 GMT
I said to up circle opponent, weak strikes etc., meaning several things. Includes "stand back" as well. The early stages of the great matches I like have a "feeling out process." I'm right there with you that matches need a feeling-out process, but the problem is that since you can only set stand back and circle from small damage to the beginning of large damage, and from large damage onward, there isn't much nuance there, so if you have the circle and stand back set super high like in the picture you posted, that takes up a larger portion of the match than I would personally want the feeling-out phase to be. For guys that need a long, thorough feeling-out phase, I'd make most if not all of their small damage moves and even some of the medium moves maneuvers that don't take the opponent off his feet, as opposed to setting his stand back and circle in a way that makes him give the opponent the runaround for half the match. I only set stand back and circle above twenty for cowardly edits who are actively avoiding the fight for large chunks of the match. The early stage of the match with Steamboat and Flair lasts about 10-12 minutes in game time. If you imagine that as 10-12 minutes of real-life time, it would be pretty silly. But since the clock is accelerated, and the matches usually go 30+ minutes, it feels just right to me. I love when it's 10-minutes in and they're just starting to step up the offense, but you may prefer differently. |
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Post by TwistC on Sept 4, 2018 2:23:36 GMT
Just re-did some logic and parameters and testing an Okada/Omega match now since I am basically using them as my templates for the NJPW style. Decided to go with a +/- 3 points (5 seemed extreme). Basically just moving 3 points in total from the offensive parameters column to defense, particularly focusing on areas like throw, lariat, etc. As for CPU Logic, what % is good for "circle opponent" in the early half of the match? Right now, I have it at 15% for S Damage and 12% for L Damage right now. Thanks again for the advice! Rather than type it out, I just did screenshots and put them all in one image. This is Ricky Steamboat. You might notice that he has strike exchanges set to "disabled." This is because I already had Flair and Steamboat chopping the exact amount that I wanted from Fire Pro Returns and the strike exchanges made it too much. So I either had to alter all their striking and weak grapple logic or just turn strike exchanges off. :) Also, I TOTALLY FORGOT to mention, ROPE BREAKS! When I wanted Flair and Steamboat to go 40-minutes, I would always have rope breaks on. You can also turn off the outside count to let them spend more time fighting out there as well. I will add that to the previous post. 1. Those stats are ridiculously overblown. If you want long matches, do lower offense to defense. Having both edits have very high offense does nothing but make them hit each other just as hard as their own defenses (a 10-10 vs 10-10 match will look the same as a 1-1 vs 1-1 match) 2. Why does he have a 7 in entertainment? Does he have any entertainment moves, or are you just wasting points? 3. Why does he have 4 in mma? Is he an mma edit? Doe he do a lot of shoot moves? 4. Exchange strikes can lead to big comebacks on losing edits, so having them on is always a plus. 5. The initiate grapple has literally no flow. seemingly every move (barring finishes) can happen in small, medium, and large. This is of course you trying to superficially do a longer match while having insanely high offense. The issue is, is that this can lead to a rng finisher happening very quickly or 5 years of fucking around with the same moves until the rng gets lucky with a finisher. |
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Post by sofia on Sept 4, 2018 2:30:05 GMT
Rather than type it out, I just did screenshots and put them all in one image. This is Ricky Steamboat. You might notice that he has strike exchanges set to "disabled." This is because I already had Flair and Steamboat chopping the exact amount that I wanted from Fire Pro Returns and the strike exchanges made it too much. So I either had to alter all their striking and weak grapple logic or just turn strike exchanges off. :) Also, I TOTALLY FORGOT to mention, ROPE BREAKS! When I wanted Flair and Steamboat to go 40-minutes, I would always have rope breaks on. You can also turn off the outside count to let them spend more time fighting out there as well. I will add that to the previous post. I know you didn't ask for any logic critiques, but... 1. Turning off the strike exchanges is a bad idea, because it can help keep a match from turning one-sided. The coup de grace strikes can take off an immense amount of health when done by a wrestler who's behind in HP and SP. So by turning it off, you're just removing an element of unpredictability and, well, making the matches potentially more boring. 2. I get that you're trying to make him a long-match wrestler but yikes those parameters are about 60, 70 points more than I'd give to Steamboat, even as a main eventer. I see no reason why he should have final-boss level defenses like Okada and Omega. That's just me, though. If the idea is to have one variant that can lengthen a match to a broadway, and then another variant meant for normal match pacing, tho, that's fine IMO. But, on that note, if the idea is to have him capable of working long matches, why are his offenses so jacked? The entire point of pumping up major params to 8-10 is to force the match pacing to ramp up considerably, since it in theory causes his major spots to more quickly transition the match from early to mid to late. 3. Unless you have a very compelling reason to have things like bodyslams and arm drags with no priorities in late match, I'd either turn them down considerably or take them off entirely. Otherwise, it's just filler moves, and that ain't psychology yo. 4. Lastly, another nitpick - Steamboat was an agile guy, I think that turning down his hammer throw to where it's at in general does him a disservice. |
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Post by ninjabrute on Sept 4, 2018 2:45:41 GMT
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Post by DakkoN on Sept 4, 2018 6:07:17 GMT
Has anyone experimented with using all the same parameter based on card position of a wrestler? I know people do the extreme with 10-1s, but how about having a scale of all 8s, 6s, 4s, 2s, etc based on upper card, mid card, low card, jobbers or whatever? I'm still trying to decide if I want to go with a set number rather than individual parameters and how to go about balancing the offense parameters with the defensive ones.
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