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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 14:38:55 GMT
Not in normal matches no. I said if he did participate in a comedy match, in which case he might be set to do different things. Another thing you seem not to be aware of is that Spike releases new moves and, as we've seen, new games where we can import edits. There are more "enterainment" moves, for example, in Fire Pro World than in Returns. If it turns out like Dusty Rhodes, where the Bionic Elbow is added and uses Entertainment as a parameter, no adjustments are necessary and no costs are incurred in the meantime. Please read that and indicate that you processed the point if or when you respond. Except the reason I already told you. See above. Movesets can be changed, if so having parameters already set in a way that reflects how well they would work is fine. When did I say that they do more than that? Quote me. Okay, smart guy, if that's the case, what is the cost of having the entertainment setting there in the meantime? What is lost? If you reply without answering this, you aren't reading. Whereas I'm actually reading you. If there are more entertainment moves added that would fit with steamboat, by all means, use the entertainment stat! But when you have NONE, and use your personal narrative "but he could do well in comedy matches" BS, it makes you seem like you have literally no idea what the params are for (and by seeing your spread, thats a very accurate assumption). That's not a reply to anything I said. I said there's no maximum point total and I'm not sharing the edits so it doesn't cost me anything to set it to what it would be if at some point I choose to use the edit differently. I'm talking to a handful of people, a couple of whom didn't read what I said, and a few who did. Distorting what people say is impolite. |
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Post by Zealot on Sept 5, 2018 15:28:15 GMT
It would be one thing to have parameter points in DEFENSE for Entertainment if you have an edit that doesn't take any nonsense from his opponent that does use those types of moves. That's fine. Prime Steamboat should not be swayed by comedy wrestlers I would believe.
However, if your edit is not using Entertainment moves at all in their moveset whether you are playing or simulating, OFFENSE parameter points in that category are just a waste of points spreading. They won't have any factor in any of his matches and simply serve to fluff up the overall points total of an edit. The points could be allocated somewhere else or just not used at all. Wouldn't change if they are there or not, but it also serves as lost potential.
Just trying to explain how the game utilizes those points based on what already has been proven, but if you want to continue living in a fantasy world where allotting points to certain move categories determines superiority or inferiority over those types of wrestlers, then by all means carry on. They are your own edits anyway.
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Post by dnmt on Sept 5, 2018 15:32:35 GMT
This thread is starting to get de-railed so I want to get it back on track with some stuff relating to my original question.
I tried a new approach last night. Instead of watching a match and just writing down some new moves the guy did, I tracked every single move and broke the match down into when I saw each competitor in Small, Medium and Large Damage. The results were much more intriguing that I expected.
I watched both Omega vs. Okada II from Dominion and Okada vs. Tanahashi XI from Dontaku.
Here's what I found from the first match.
Okada vs. Omega 2
Okada
Small
Leg trip to elbow leg lock
Mount position to leg hold
Hammerlock
Headlock to shoulder block to one arm Rainmaker pose
Running counter back elbow
Body slam
Neckbreaker to pin
Chin lock, says "ask him"
Snapmare to Dropkick
Medium
Elbows
Flapjack
Victory roll to Red Ink, says "ask him"
Reverse Neckbreaker to elbow drop
Corner to center euro uppercut
Large
A ton of elbow butts
Top rope back elbow butt escape
Apron Heavy Rain
Running shotgun Dropkick
Euro uppercut
Dropkick
Elbow drop to bent down Rainmaker pose
Endless German to Rainmaker
Irish whip to Dropkick
Counter standing boot
Corner Dropkick (Low Dropkick as substitute?)
Diving elbow through table
Top rope missile Dropkick to pin
Face Dropkick sequence. 3 dropkicks to pin attempt
Short arm Rainmaker (head pickup lariat as substitute?)
Dropkick to back
Dropkick standing
Spinning Tombstone
German hold
Omega
Small
Wrist lock
Waist lock
Headlock to shoulder block
Toe kick
Back elbow butt counter
Body slam
Counter hurracanrana
Medium
Basement Dropkick
Shin breaker
Figure 4 w/voice lines
Chop in corner, says "come on"
Running back switch
Pumphandle backbreaker
Asai moonsault
Missile Dropkick to pin
Doctor bomb to pin
Canadian buster to moonsault
Large
A ton of elbow butts
Chop
Apron elbow butt
top rope dragon suplex attempt
Toe kick
Back elbow butt counter
Avalanche Aoi Shoudou to pin
Aoi Shoudou to "bang" taunt to V-Trigger
Snap dragon
A ton of V-Triggers to pin
Reverse hurracanrana
Rain-Trigger to pin
OWA
Snap dragon to V-Trigger
Double finger point taunt
Small package
I have a ton to work from with this list. I think the major changes are going to be to the Logic I have for striking moves. Omega literally didn't throw a single elbow strike in the "medium" part of the match, which is not at all what I have in my game now. It seems like the strikes are most common near the END of the match, which is basically the opposite of what I have now!!
So I am planning to re-do the Logic to ensure there are a lot more "wrestling" moves in small/medium and large is mostly a combination of strikes and big moves. Super interesting as I never really noticed that NJPW matches work like that (at least with these guys, who don't do a ton of striking until the elbow exchanges at the end of the match).
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Post by Zealot on Sept 5, 2018 15:46:15 GMT
I would recommend not necessarily big strikes or strike combos in medium damage, but actually allocating a few points in medium and large damage to weak strikes that leave the opponent standing (not dazed) if you are not already. I usually set those to like 15-15-15 or 20-20-20 based on my tastes. This is more strong style-ish, but it paces really well in my testing.
The occasional elbow, punch, or chop can sometimes go a long way to extending the match.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 15:49:38 GMT
It would be one thing to have parameter points in DEFENSE for Entertainment if you have an edit that doesn't take any nonsense from his opponent that does use those types of moves. That's fine. Prime Steamboat should not be swayed by comedy wrestlers I would believe. However, if your edit is not using Entertainment moves at all in their moveset whether you are playing or simulating, OFFENSE parameter points in that category are just a waste of points spreading. They won't have any factor in any of his matches and simply serve to fluff up the overall points total of an edit. The points could be allocated somewhere else or just not used at all. Wouldn't change if they are there or not, but it also serves as lost potential. Just trying to explain how the game utilizes those points based on what already has been proven, but if you want to continue living in a fantasy world where allotting points to certain move categories determines superiority or inferiority over those types of wrestlers, then by all means carry on. They are your own edits anyway. What difference does it make what the overall points total is of my own edit that I'm not sharing with anyone and which doesn't effect the actual match results? |
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Post by dnmt on Sept 5, 2018 15:53:35 GMT
I would recommend not necessarily big strikes or strike combos in medium damage, but actually allocating a few points in medium and large damage to weak strikes that leave the opponent standing (not dazed) if you are not already. I usually set those to like 15-15-15 or 20-20-20 based on my tastes. This is more strong style-ish, but it paces really well in my testing. The occasional elbow, punch, or chop can sometimes go a long way to extending the match. Can you elaborate? What exactly do you set to 15-15-15? The % for something like "Elbow Butt" in front grapple across S-M-L Damage? |
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Post by Severla on Sept 5, 2018 16:07:19 GMT
Can you elaborate? What exactly do you set to 15-15-15? The % for something like "Elbow Butt" in front grapple across S-M-L Damage? Pretty sure he means 'choose a Small Grap. that is just a standing strike that doesnt knock down (like Body Punch) and set it to 15% in all three front grapple damage categories.' |
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Post by dnmt on Sept 5, 2018 16:09:08 GMT
Can you elaborate? What exactly do you set to 15-15-15? The % for something like "Elbow Butt" in front grapple across S-M-L Damage? Pretty sure he means 'choose a Small Grap. that is just a standing strike that doesnt knock down (like Body Punch) and set it to 15% in all three front grapple damage categories.' Got it. Based on what I am seeing in NJPW, the % for Small and Medium should definitely be lower than Large (at least for guys like Okada, Omega and Tanahashi. I am thinking Ishii and Suzuki do a lot more strikes in the early and middle of matches). I am happy as this creates a nice spread of moves for each damage section. |
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Post by Zealot on Sept 5, 2018 16:13:50 GMT
Yes, that's what I mean. Sorry for not clarifying that. I usually do that for all my edits since mine are original creations and I like that type of pacing.
Obviously, if you are trying to re-create real life wrestlers, you would utilize that differently. Strong style type edits like Ishii, Shibata, and the like would do those strikes more than say Kenny Omega or Okada who would likely abandon that style midway through a match for more feats of agility.
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Post by heelsinc on Sept 5, 2018 16:20:59 GMT
It would be one thing to have parameter points in DEFENSE for Entertainment if you have an edit that doesn't take any nonsense from his opponent that does use those types of moves. That's fine. Prime Steamboat should not be swayed by comedy wrestlers I would believe. However, if your edit is not using Entertainment moves at all in their moveset whether you are playing or simulating, OFFENSE parameter points in that category are just a waste of points spreading. They won't have any factor in any of his matches and simply serve to fluff up the overall points total of an edit. The points could be allocated somewhere else or just not used at all. Wouldn't change if they are there or not, but it also serves as lost potential. Just trying to explain how the game utilizes those points based on what already has been proven, but if you want to continue living in a fantasy world where allotting points to certain move categories determines superiority or inferiority over those types of wrestlers, then by all means carry on. They are your own edits anyway. What difference does it make what the overall points total is of my own edit that I'm not sharing with anyone and which doesn't effect the actual match results? What youre saying makes total sense about adding moves later. While the point being made of the stats being "useless" with the edit being as it is it also causes zero harm to have the points there so I don't get why everyones jumping on you for it. |
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Post by pfadrian on Sept 5, 2018 16:39:39 GMT
What Entertaining moves would Steamboat ever do? He was the furthest from an Entertainment move wrestler I can imagine.
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Post by LankyLefty17 on Sept 5, 2018 16:56:26 GMT
You don't appear to have actually read anything. Those points should not be there in the first place because Steamboat is not going to be using Entertainment moves at all. He's not going to be using magical spells, he's not going to try and roll over his opponent, he's not trying to pull an Eddie Guerrero and fake getting hit by a chair, he's not going to be using the Testicular Claw, and by god, he's not going to try and molest Ric Flair. Not in normal matches no. I said if he did participate in a comedy match, in which case he might be set to do different things. Another thing you seem not to be aware of is that Spike releases new moves and, as we've seen, new games where we can import edits. There are more "enterainment" moves, for example, in Fire Pro World than in Returns. If it turns out like Dusty Rhodes, where the Bionic Elbow is added and uses Entertainment as a parameter, no adjustments are necessary and no costs are incurred in the meantime. Please read that and indicate that you processed the point if or when you respond. Except the reason I already told you. See above. Movesets can be changed, if so having parameters already set in a way that reflects how well they would work is fine.
First off, you are absolutely right in that this is your edit, you aren't sharing, and you can set parameters to whatever you like that gives you the match you want. You do you.
What has people on here frustrated is you seem to have an incorrect assumption to what the entertainment stat is (at least the offensive stat, I get what you are saying on the defensive side). It is not a "comedy match" setting. Its for the effectiveness on specific moves- which honestly, don't really tie to a comedy match at all. And none of them are moves that tie a move Steamboat would do, or point to a future move that he did that isn't currently in the game. And you have that stat really fucking high. It just seems... unnecessary.
But again- if that floats your boat go for it. Hopefully Spike releases a pie face move that you can stick on Steamboat as a signature or something :)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 17:03:55 GMT
Not in normal matches no. I said if he did participate in a comedy match, in which case he might be set to do different things. Another thing you seem not to be aware of is that Spike releases new moves and, as we've seen, new games where we can import edits. There are more "enterainment" moves, for example, in Fire Pro World than in Returns. If it turns out like Dusty Rhodes, where the Bionic Elbow is added and uses Entertainment as a parameter, no adjustments are necessary and no costs are incurred in the meantime. Please read that and indicate that you processed the point if or when you respond. Except the reason I already told you. See above. Movesets can be changed, if so having parameters already set in a way that reflects how well they would work is fine. First off, you are absolutely right in that this is your edit, you aren't sharing, and you can set parameters to whatever you like that gives you the match you want. You do you. What has people on here frustrated is you seem to have an incorrect assumption to what the entertainment stat is (at least the offensive stat, I get what you are saying on the defensive side). It is not a "comedy match" setting. Its for the effectiveness on specific moves- which honestly, don't really tie to a comedy match at all. And none of them are moves that tie a move Steamboat would do, or point to a future move that he did that isn't currently in the game. And you have that stat really fucking high. It just seems... unnecessary. But again- if that floats your boat go for it. Hopefully Spike releases a pie face move that you can stick on Steamboat as a signature or something :)
Yeah, there's very few entertainment moves, I'm aware. The thing is, Spike adds moves all the time and sometimes parameters that didn't matter before may start to matter. Now of course, you COULD adjust the edit's parameters in case some move comes up as "entertainment" in the future that you want to add, but since I focus on parameters and such when I first make the wrestler, I just set them then in case it changes later. I adjust parameters when I feel like I need to if it's not giving me the results I want in the ring. Parameters that don't effect anything I just leave as is, since it doesn't have any effect on anything ... except to trigger people when you post the list of stats. :) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 17:04:21 GMT
What difference does it make what the overall points total is of my own edit that I'm not sharing with anyone and which doesn't effect the actual match results? What youre saying makes total sense about adding moves later. While the point being made of the stats being "useless" with the edit being as it is it also causes zero harm to have the points there so I don't get why everyones jumping on you for it. Yeah, people get reflexively annoyed if an edit has a high point total because they think it's like "pumping up your favorites" like a little kid would do. So they feel the general need to attack over it and just latched onto that. The real actual point which is relevant to the thread is the difference in match philosophies that I was talking about with maikeru. I'll paste it again. "The fundamental difference I think is that you're focusing on bigger and bigger moves being the main source of match progress, and you are right and I totally agree, that hits a brick wall at around 20-minutes and gets boring, because there aren't enough of those moves to keep it from getting repetitive, and they just either get the pin or they don't. I know because a lot of my other edits have those types of matches. But with these "great workers," I'm using the wrestlers wearing each other down as the major source of match progress, which when combined with the right other things, can make a far longer match be entertaining."
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Post by heelsinc on Sept 5, 2018 17:07:56 GMT
Not in normal matches no. I said if he did participate in a comedy match, in which case he might be set to do different things. Another thing you seem not to be aware of is that Spike releases new moves and, as we've seen, new games where we can import edits. There are more "enterainment" moves, for example, in Fire Pro World than in Returns. If it turns out like Dusty Rhodes, where the Bionic Elbow is added and uses Entertainment as a parameter, no adjustments are necessary and no costs are incurred in the meantime. Please read that and indicate that you processed the point if or when you respond. Except the reason I already told you. See above. Movesets can be changed, if so having parameters already set in a way that reflects how well they would work is fine.
First off, you are absolutely right in that this is your edit, you aren't sharing, and you can set parameters to whatever you like that gives you the match you want. You do you.
What has people on here frustrated is you seem to have an incorrect assumption to what the entertainment stat is (at least the offensive stat, I get what you are saying on the defensive side). It is not a "comedy match" setting. Its for the effectiveness on specific moves- which honestly, don't really tie to a comedy match at all. And none of them are moves that tie a move Steamboat would do, or point to a future move that he did that isn't currently in the game. And you have that stat really fucking high. It just seems... unnecessary.
But again- if that floats your boat go for it. Hopefully Spike releases a pie face move that you can stick on Steamboat as a signature or something :)
You're potentially very correct on the point that no move will ever come out in the entertainment category that would fit steamboat so again he could have 0-10 points because it doesn't matter. I dont think he's shown that he's not clear on how the points work like everyone seems to implying though. |
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