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Post by Nth on Mar 19, 2019 5:37:51 GMT
What's frustrating is that it's a feature that we know is possible. Carl has shown that adding more positions to priorities is not only possible, but not super complicated. It's also frustrating when they show us what kind of cool stuff they're capable of. Like the endless German? Holy shit is that cool. Why not a vertical suplex version? Strike exchanges? Awesome, why not expand the number of strikes you can use and hell, why not make an AKI-esque strike system for grapples where you can pick a few strikes and your character will have those options? I feel like we've barely scratched the surface and it bums me out that it's gonna be only mods where we get to see this stuff explored. Pretty much the reason I bought both the PC and PS4 version.
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Post by IamAres on Mar 19, 2019 5:47:23 GMT
What's frustrating is that it's a feature that we know is possible. Carl has shown that adding more positions to priorities is not only possible, but not super complicated. It's also frustrating when they show us what kind of cool stuff they're capable of. Like the endless German? Holy shit is that cool. Why not a vertical suplex version? To be fair, none of Carl's mods have added a standing strike option, either. I wouldn't think it would be that complicated, but maybe it is. I haven't gotten into the code, just tinkered with the end results.
Speaking of the endless German, it is fucking cool, but I realized the other day that what I REALLY want...is an endless German as a FRONT grapple. Yes, that kind of makes it a glorified, violent back switch, and I'm okay with that. But we've got all these other Germans (mostly pinning ones) from the front grapple, and just imagine how cool it would be to just pop behind them into suplex mode that combos right into hitting MORE suplexes. Imagine how cool that would be for Lesnar. Or Angle. Hell, it would actually suit Okada (who it was intended for in the first place) BETTER to have it as a front grapple - he only really uses it to transition into the Rainmaker. Right now, you've got a fair chance of him going for another German, getting countered after that one, and not getting around to hitting the finish he was ostensibly setting up. As a front grapple, you wouldn't even need another German back there, you could just go right into the Rainmaker/Cobra/Rainmaker Throw (ie, one of the moves you're building to) every time.
Although, on the positive side, kudos to them for giving us essentially a new mechanic when any other wrestling game developer would've just given us "German into Rainmaker" as an alternate move.
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Post by dnmt on Mar 19, 2019 15:20:54 GMT
What's frustrating is that it's a feature that we know is possible. Carl has shown that adding more positions to priorities is not only possible, but not super complicated. It's also frustrating when they show us what kind of cool stuff they're capable of. Like the endless German? Holy shit is that cool. Why not a vertical suplex version? To be fair, none of Carl's mods have added a standing strike option, either. I wouldn't think it would be that complicated, but maybe it is. I haven't gotten into the code, just tinkered with the end results. Speaking of the endless German, it is fucking cool, but I realized the other day that what I REALLY want...is an endless German as a FRONT grapple. Yes, that kind of makes it a glorified, violent back switch, and I'm okay with that. But we've got all these other Germans (mostly pinning ones) from the front grapple, and just imagine how cool it would be to just pop behind them into suplex mode that combos right into hitting MORE suplexes. Imagine how cool that would be for Lesnar. Or Angle. Hell, it would actually suit Okada (who it was intended for in the first place) BETTER to have it as a front grapple - he only really uses it to transition into the Rainmaker. Right now, you've got a fair chance of him going for another German, getting countered after that one, and not getting around to hitting the finish he was ostensibly setting up. As a front grapple, you wouldn't even need another German back there, you could just go right into the Rainmaker/Cobra/Rainmaker Throw (ie, one of the moves you're building to) every time. Although, on the positive side, kudos to them for giving us essentially a new mechanic when any other wrestling game developer would've just given us "German into Rainmaker" as an alternate move.
Honestly, the easiest way to do this is just open the priority menu up. I am no programmer, but I don't see why something like a Front Grapple Back Switch > Endless German > Rainmaker would be hard to code into the priority system. We already have a Logic menu for back grapples, is it that hard to just add another layer on top that changes the back grapple logic if a certain move occurs? If the user fucks up the chain in the CPU logic menu (i.e. creating some sort of priority combo that doesn't work), the game usually just ignores it and moves on. I am very confused on why we can't set a priority chain from and to any move in the moveset. EDIT - for example, let's say my normal back grapple logic is: Dropkick: 20% Endless German: 30% Cobra Hold: 10% Rainmaker: 40% It seems incredibly easy to just set up a priority chain of 100% in L Damage from the Endless German to the Rainmaker. So that any time the Endless German connects, the Rainmaker follows.
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Post by IamAres on Mar 19, 2019 17:28:33 GMT
It might work that way with mods that allow priorites into standing grapples; I haven't tested it with a transition as the trigger. They're designed to work with the opponent stunned, so I don't know if that would work without testing it.
All the things we can priority into now are things the computer will decide whether or not to do while the opponent is still down; prioing into other things than those is a little outside how it was designed and can be finicky.
None of which changes the fact that I really want a front-grapple endless German; I was mostly using Okada as an example of why it would be awesome, especially since he's the guy it was made for. He certainly wouldn't lose anything by it.
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Post by view619 on Mar 19, 2019 22:24:32 GMT
Unlike the front & back grapples, there's no existing priority enum for standing strikes. So, it wouldn't be as simple as adding new priorities for front & back grapples was; those priorities basically existed but weren't exposed to the player by Spike. It would definitely be more complicated than modifying a variable so the priorities show up in the list.
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Post by Senator Phillips on Mar 20, 2019 2:31:47 GMT
Unlike the front & back grapples, there's no existing priority enum for standing strikes. So, it wouldn't be as simple as adding new priorities for front & back grapples was; those priorities basically existed but weren't exposed to the player by Spike. It would definitely be more complicated than modifying a variable so the priorities show up in the list. Thanks for the info on that. I'd still love to have them, but it'd apparently take a decent bit of effort on their part to make it work.
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Post by OrochiGeese on Mar 20, 2019 5:21:18 GMT
Unlike the front & back grapples, there's no existing priority enum for standing strikes. So, it wouldn't be as simple as adding new priorities for front & back grapples was; those priorities basically existed but weren't exposed to the player by Spike. It would definitely be more complicated than modifying a variable so the priorities show up in the list. I'm not familiar with the enum terminology but are you saying that Spike actually coded Front and Back Grapple categories as Priority logic "finisher" options in the game but didn't make them available to us? But Standing Strike category wasn't coded in? Any idea why Spike didn't allow us to use the Front and Back Grapple categories to finish priorities? Even if it would be more complicated than just switching the "enum" on for us, and it would mean them now programming in Standing Strikes as priority finisher options, is there any reason to believe this category would be harder for them to effectively program than Running Strikes were? Is there something about this category that makes it especially difficult or is it just that they didn't do it and it would therefore take time?
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Post by DM_PSX on Mar 20, 2019 6:03:02 GMT
ENUM means enumeration. When you want to have a bunch of values, you can define them once, and then refer to them later by those names, so you don't have 'magic numbers' all over your code. Meaning you'd have to go and re-update all your code every time you changed one of those numbers. This leads to bugs when you forget. It's also nice for code clarity. enum BodyPart { Head, Torso, Arms, Legs } The code compiler will automatically assign those numerical meaning. Then you can refer to BodyPart.Head or etc, and the compiler will swap it out for the correct number when making the executable. docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/language-reference/keywords/enum
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Post by OrochiGeese on Mar 20, 2019 6:57:50 GMT
Cool, thanks for the clarification! 💡
So does this mean that Spike just had "front grapple" and "back grapple" listed as enumerated options for "priority logic ending category" code but didn't follow through by enabling it in the rest of the code OR that that they did follow through in the code but just didn't "unlock" it for our usage for some reason? Does the fact they don't have "standing strike" enums mean they would have to change the entire code just to put that in?
I guess I don't fully understand if the code for front/back grapples as ending categories is already in there and they just have to "turn it on" or if they are just there as enums in the code but they still have to make the logic actually work. And if the latter is the case, is the only difference between those two categories and standing strike category is that the first two are in the enums and the last one isn't?
All of the coding talk is kind of above my head, as is probably obvious by now 😁
I thought "E-numbs" were what happened when you became desensitized to online shenanigans 😜
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Post by DM_PSX on Mar 20, 2019 8:28:44 GMT
Cool, thanks for the clarification! 💡 So does this mean that Spike just had "front grapple" and "back grapple" listed as enumerated options for "priority logic ending category" code but didn't follow through by enabling it in the rest of the code OR that that they did follow through in the code but just didn't "unlock" it for our usage for some reason? Does the fact they don't have "standing strike" enums mean they would have to change the entire code just to put that in? I guess I don't fully understand if the code for front/back grapples as ending categories is already in there and they just have to "turn it on" or if they are just there as enums in the code but they still have to make the logic actually work. And if the latter is the case, is the only difference between those two categories and standing strike category is that the first two are in the enums and the last one isn't? All of the coding talk is kind of above my head, as is probably obvious by now 😁 I thought "E-numbs" were what happened when you became desensitized to online shenanigans 😜 Below is just a made up example. The existence of enums in themselves doesn't mean anything. Just that they were defined values. Like the body parts example. If every wrestler has different HP for different body parts, you'd have an array of integer (whole numbers) data types defined somewhere. You'd need 4. So int32 HitPoints [4]; // and array of 4 32 bit integers So each of those 4 integers in that array will refer to a different body part. 0 = body 1 = head 2 = arms 3 = legs If you use those numbers directly, it's error prone if you write the wrong number somewhere, AND good luck changing all the code if those numbers ever changes for any reason. You'll have a mess to untangle. This also stops you from making a typo and indexing out of the bounds of the array, which would cause you to write into other memory. That array is really just the start and end of addresses in the computer's memory. It's just a bunch of ones and zeros, but they are in a specific place, and to be interpreted in a specific way. It's 128 bits / 16 bytes of reserved space. And we know that every 32 bits represents a whole number. Hitpoints[0] occupies bytes 0-31, Hitpoints[1] occupies bytes 32-63 and so on. HitPoints[4] doesn't exist, and you'd just write random ones and zeroes over memory for something else, and possibly used in a completely different context. Most program crashes or strange behaviour happens when things get read or written to the wrong place. AKA, the buffer overflow. So each move can use a BodyPart enum to specify which part it damages, and then that number can be used to index into the HitPoints array. If our data structures and functions have to take BodyPart enum values instead of raw numbers, it stops all those issues. void Wrestler.TakeDamage(AttackInfo LastAttack) { Self.HitPoints[LastAttack.BodyPart] -= LastAttack.DamageAmount; } I haven't looked at the Fire Pro code yet. I won't until the last patch comes out. I'm just going off the above statement. The existence or non existence of those enums doesn't mean anything outright. Nothing that happens in FirePro requires that complex of coding. It's a simple little game. Simply looking at a priority and choosing a grapple move to execute instead of the RNG is a few lines of code at best. The problem is two fold here; 1) The FPW teams have incompetent at best. 2) Programming is like alchemy or other things of that nature. Only you really know how your code works, and you can make up any story you want about why things don't work, or why they aren't done yet. Having a problem to tackle is a form of job security. If your program works 100% outright, you aren't needed anymore. Having an easy to understand program code base also means you can be replaced at your employer's whim. So you have to break 2 things to fix one thing. And when simple things like grapple priorities, or adding new wrestlers to a promoter save come up, you say "We're looking into it" instead of writing simple code that opens the free agent list, appends new entries and closes the file. :) Just like the alchemist telling the king. "We'll turn this horse urine turned to gold any day now" until funding runs out. Then it's "oh, we just about had it. We're on the verge of a major breakthrough any second now, we just ran into some unforseen troubles", "we just need a little more time and money!". Wash, rinse, repeat. ;)
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Post by view619 on Mar 20, 2019 12:59:01 GMT
Regarding the hidden front/back grapple priorities, I'm assuming that the devs kept those hidden because they only trigger vs dazed opponents; otherwise the cpu ignores the logic.
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Post by OrochiGeese on Mar 20, 2019 21:19:59 GMT
Below is just a made up example. UGH! I typed out a huge post in response to yours and then just lost it!!! UGH! I just want to thank you though for typing all of that out and explaining it to me. I've never really been a quick study with programming but your post really did help me to understand the enums and the relation to FPW. I had a lot more on this but my internet ate it. I have to remember never to press back again, expecting to be able to retrieve my post when I go forward. But seriously, thank you SO much for typing all of that and explaining it to me (and others who are likely in the dark about enums). It is really appreciated 😀
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