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Post by soak314 on Mar 8, 2019 9:51:03 GMT
I'm trying to get 8-10 min matches with my edits, should I put their params to 10? Not necessarily. Hard to say in the abstract, like I mentioned it depends on a lot of things, including the moves themselves and logic. But if I'm taking a stab at it in the dark... sure, try mixing offensive params in the 7-10 range, defensive params maybe same or 6-9? Truthfully though, you're just gonna need to experiment and tweak based on results. Two identical edits with 5 in all stats will typically nuke each other into large around the 6-8 minute mark, so wondy's pretty on the spot. But, it depends on moveset still. An edit who drops a powerbomb at the start of lrg will probably delete the rest of the HP bar (and a good bit of the spirit bar) versing itself at all 5's. If the same edit has a chance to do that same powerbomb, or a similar big move, this time in med: if it isn't reversed, that edit will suddenly be at the lrg state. But that's just pacing. Endgame logic is an entirely different ballpark. Parameter pacing determines how fast you deplete the HP bar, but endgame logic will determine how consistently your edit finishes, and how big a range his consistency covers. If the edit has all but one 5% front grapple finish move in the sml + med slot, he could hit it anywhere. Maybe from the moment he begins lrg. Maybe he'll go a minute without hitting it and hits it thrice in a row. Maybe he goes for 32 in game minutes without hitting it at all. On the other hand, if he has multiple outs from many different states in the logic, he could be spending 2-5 minutes on the average in lrg. Nice and predictable.
What I'm saying is it's all a big, lovely mess of a system. |
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Post by mur96 on Mar 8, 2019 19:28:00 GMT
This post transformed into a gold mine guys, I cannot stress how useful all this is
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Post by TheDenizen on Mar 8, 2019 22:23:23 GMT
Care with Deni/Carl's number listings for one notable reason: The given suggestions are akin to RPG stats. Params shouldnt be treated as such, realistically. Also, sometimes people tend to go 'oh well my guy is AMAZINGLY AGILE' and slap on like an 8 in Agility, and the moveset is 95% Agility and they just obliterate people. Yes, the suggestions in the table are intended as suggested starting points only, to be adjusted as required based on test sims.
and your super agile guy is a prime example of Overfocus, which our guide also addresses.
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Post by dnmt on Mar 8, 2019 22:27:23 GMT
Just to provide some info on what I found working for longer NJPW-style main event matches.
The sweet spot I was looking for is my main event guys getting to around 30 minute matches, without getting into the L Damage section until at least the 10 minute mark if not closer to the 20 minute mark.
I use Kazuchika Okada and Kenny Omega as the absolute top tier of my roster. Both have 225 total edit points.
Okada has 34 total offensive parameter points, and 111 total defensive parameter points.
Omega has 33 total offensive, and 110 total defensive. He has a slight higher movement speed in the "Skills" section, which makes up the 2 point difference.
I did take an RPG style approach to this, in that the categories with more offensive points are categories the wrestler is more proficient in - i.e. Okada's Arm skill is a 5, which tends to be the highest number of any of my edits.
These serve as the high end baseline. Most of my edits will have around 30 total offensive parameter points, and the defenses will be lowered as I move down the roster.
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Post by TheDenizen on Mar 8, 2019 22:32:02 GMT
yeah, having low offense/high defense is key for having longer match times (as is a slower moving/counting referee).
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Post by LankyLefty17 on Mar 8, 2019 23:12:41 GMT
I did take an RPG style approach to this, in that the categories with more offensive points are categories the wrestler is more proficient in - i.e. Okada's Arm skill is a 5, which tends to be the highest number of any of my edits. These serve as the high end baseline. Most of my edits will have around 30 total offensive parameter points, and the defenses will be lowered as I move down the roster.
Personally, I think this can be a dangerous way to go about it. Offensive parameters, in a vacuum, mean nothing. They are simply a gauge for how much damage an edit will do when performing a move in that category. If you arbitrarily set an offensive parameter just to scale it to your roster without taking that edits moveset and logic into account, you can open yourself up to results that may not match what you're going for. For example, if you have arm rated as 5 but no moves that use the arm category, that stat literally means nothing. Conversely, if you have it set to 10 and every move is an arm move, your dude (or dudette) will blitz through everyone.
My recommendation (for whatever its worth) is to set up offensive parameters last- after putting together a move set and logic that fits the edit you want. Then, based on the types of moves and the frequency that they're happening, you can assign points to each category. If your edit never does a submission (or only uses them as rest holds), you can set that sucker all the way to 1 since it isnt getting uses. Rare finisher that uses Arm, something thats mostly absent throughout the rest of the move set? Jack it up to 10. Or don't, but this way you're setting the parameters based on what the edit is doing instead of trying to reach a certain arbitrary point range.
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Post by Severla on Mar 9, 2019 16:03:35 GMT
Yes, the suggestions in the table are intended as suggested starting points only, to be adjusted as required based on test sims. and your super agile guy is a prime example of Overfocus, which our guide also addresses.
Oh, I know y'all have that in there. It's a mixture of re-stating (as people seem to miss that part) and the fact that the numbers will be posted separately from the guide a lot. I still love the guide, this isnt a knock on you two. |
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Post by dnmt on Mar 9, 2019 19:32:28 GMT
I did take an RPG style approach to this, in that the categories with more offensive points are categories the wrestler is more proficient in - i.e. Okada's Arm skill is a 5, which tends to be the highest number of any of my edits. These serve as the high end baseline. Most of my edits will have around 30 total offensive parameter points, and the defenses will be lowered as I move down the roster.
Personally, I think this can be a dangerous way to go about it. Offensive parameters, in a vacuum, mean nothing. They are simply a gauge for how much damage an edit will do when performing a move in that category. If you arbitrarily set an offensive parameter just to scale it to your roster without taking that edits moveset and logic into account, you can open yourself up to results that may not match what you're going for. For example, if you have arm rated as 5 but no moves that use the arm category, that stat literally means nothing. Conversely, if you have it set to 10 and every move is an arm move, your dude (or dudette) will blitz through everyone.
My recommendation (for whatever its worth) is to set up offensive parameters last- after putting together a move set and logic that fits the edit you want. Then, based on the types of moves and the frequency that they're happening, you can assign points to each category. If your edit never does a submission (or only uses them as rest holds), you can set that sucker all the way to 1 since it isnt getting uses. Rare finisher that uses Arm, something thats mostly absent throughout the rest of the move set? Jack it up to 10. Or don't, but this way you're setting the parameters based on what the edit is doing instead of trying to reach a certain arbitrary point range.
Oh no, I know. I look at the top 4-5 most common parameter categories for my edit’s moves, and those categories get the points. This enables their offense to actually break through defensive parameters that are usually set to 8-10, while stretching out my match length. |
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Post by thefranchise03 on Mar 14, 2019 14:54:06 GMT
Is there a parameter range for women? How should I rate them?
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Post by sofia on Mar 14, 2019 17:50:07 GMT
Is there a parameter range for women? How should I rate them? However you feel like. I tend to give them equal point spreads to men's wrestlers when dealing with OCs. However, Spike did give most of them a point range about equivalent to the majority of junior heavyweight wrestlers if not lower in Returns, with the highest rated being Bull Nakano at 150 or so points. The point spread is tighter among the SWA defaults in World. |
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Post by Severla on Mar 14, 2019 18:46:34 GMT
in Returns, with the highest rated being Bull Nakano at 150 or so points. Further noting how they used to point women, Bull sitting right under 150 is basically comparable to Kenny/Okada being 250 in World as Final Boss statuses. The bulk of women are between 90-120. Even Manami Toyota was only 116. It's a flavor option of how you want to handle your own roster, for sure, but Spike previously was clearly 'point the non-legendary women well under the top guys.' |
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Post by IamAres on Mar 14, 2019 20:13:26 GMT
And correctly, in my view - I wouldn't remotely expect Toyota to be able to go toe-to-toe with Misawa like she's a 250-pound heavyweight, even if they are both legends in their respective divisions.
I usually parameter women out on a 5-point scale, with sixes being rare and treated like a ten for a male wrestler. And then, like men, that'll scale down for lower-tier wrestlers, so a 3 is pretty good for a lower-tier female wrestler.
That gives you room to play around and make exceptions, too, since you could always go higher than that in a special case, but that's my general guideline.
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Post by thefranchise03 on Mar 14, 2019 21:57:49 GMT
How would I rate someone like Alicia Fox, who I have at the 75 range. Some of DJKM's edits are around 40 points, but they are mostly indy wrestlers like Daizee Haze and Jordynne Grace, while someone like Chyna is at 99.
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Post by FlashBurton on Mar 14, 2019 22:29:14 GMT
I doubt this is of any help but Trish Status was rated something like 28 & Stacey Kiebler even less in past Fire Pros
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Post by IamAres on Mar 15, 2019 18:01:16 GMT
How would I rate someone like Alicia Fox, who I have at the 75 range. Some of DJKM's edits are around 40 points, but they are mostly indy wrestlers like Daizee Haze and Jordynne Grace, while someone like Chyna is at 99. As far as overall point total, I couldn't tell you. I almost never pay attention to them because they don't matter.
As far as individual parameters, I'd normally probably stick in the 1-3 range for someone like Foxy. BUT - she's also kind of a special case, because while she's not hard to beat, she'll sometimes just start beating people she "shouldn't" be, so I'd probably give her a bit more offense than I otherwise would, and make her defense extra low to compensate. I haven't done Foxy yet, so I can't just look at what I have, but off the top of my head, I'd probably do something like:
Offensive: Punch 2, Kick 3, Suplex 4, Joint 1, Stretch 2, Power 2, Agility 4, Arm 2, Tech 4, Rough 3, MMA 1, Ent 1 Defensive: Punch 1, Kick 1, Suplex 2, Joint 1, Stretch 2, Flying 2, Impact 2, Lariat 1, Tech 2, Rough 1, MMA 1, Ent 1
By and large, that's about a point higher in most of the offensive params than I'd normally do for somebody of her status, and the defense a point lower for the most part, to help her get that "not hard to beat but sometimes does well and wins" effect. Suplex, Agility and Tech, specifically, are higher than I'd otherwise go, but they all go into stuff she wins with and help keep her offense dangerous.
If she's too tough or too easy to beat, raising or lowering her impact defense by a point can get you a lot of mileage. (Parameters like this - and offensive power - are one reason I don't care about overall totals. Some params carry a lot more weight than others.) Impact is used as a defensive parameter in a LOOOOT of wrestling moves, so subtle tweaks to it can have a strong effect.
As far as Trish and Lita's ratings in the GBA games, I take most ratings in those with a grain of salt. I think they gave Kurt Angle like an 8 power - that's up into "hoss" territory, really large heavyweights - and Kurt hardly even does any "power" moves! I'm guessing they were just trying to "buff" him a bit from his FPD stats, but they'd have been better served to add a point to the categories he uses (Suplex, Joint, Agility) and a couple points to Impact - you keep his identity, strengths and weaknesses, intact, you just have a stronger version of himself.
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