Post by BlackLodgeMango on Jul 17, 2018 3:51:00 GMT
This was a go to thread for me so I feel like it should be revived. But feel free to ask simple questions that don't really require a whole thread, or just neat little tips and tricks you've found along the way.
Coloring the base color of a part the same color as what's covering it gets rid of those ugly part outlines that so many edits have. I usually set the base color to the '1' skin color and then color it if it covers the entire part.
This will mostly be intended for beginner edit creators in the hopes of offering some general edit-making advice aimed at making matches not suck right out of the box. At least initially. I'm hoping this will be a sort of living guide, being added to and growing with posts from all of you, from and about the basics to the advanceds. Maybe it'll eventually end up being a compendium of cool little logic hacks or other edit making philosophies and how-to's for achieving very specific ends, but I'll not get ahead of myself. Instead, just to start us off, here are a few of the most basic, general, first-thing-I-look-at when evaluating a brand new edit bits of info.
If you don't want a match to end after a random punch... ...or otherwise random move, like a front headlock drag, or snapmare, or whatever: Do Not put any logic points into pins at "Opponent Condition Critical". This goes for rest holds as well. No matter how low you put this, even if it's 1%, you're leaving that much of a chance of a match ending after a random, anticlimactic move. Ask yourself if you would be happy to see a 30 minute epic which has seen near fall after near fall from signatures and finishers finally get the three count after an irish whip botch bump, or end a chinlock submission. If the answer is no, you would rather not see that happen, ever, then be sure any pins and rest holds in your moveset against a downed opponent are set to 0 for the final category of opponent damage level. Otherwise, you will see these kinds of finishes.
If you do want matches to end after moves that are intended to end matches: Use the "Priority Attack" logic settings to ensure pin fall attempts after match-ending moves. You have three priority attack slots, which means you can have up to three moves that don't inherently include a pin still give your edit the opportunity to pick up the win. You pick your "Priority Attack" move from among your moveset, then can assign a "Follow-Up Attack" for the downed opponent. These can be either standing at head or feet, and either a regular move from those positions or specifically a pin attempt. In general, you probably want to give 100% chance to go for the pin after your main finisher, or even potential match-ending signatures that you also intend to be 2 and 2.9 getters. You might think making it 95% will give your edit the opportunity to keep kicking ass once in a while when he's really feeling it and doesn't want to end the match yet, but it just ends up causing matches that have come to their seemingly natural conclusion where you're itching for a pin fall end up needlessly continuing after a huge move that should have ended it. You can also make a "finishing combo" that doesn't end in a pin, but maybe a signature submission for example. Again, the idea is to have matches end or be attempted to be ended appropriately.
If you don't want to see a finisher come out two minutes into a match: Do Not put any logic points for a finisher at Small or Medium damage. This goes for signature moves and any move that is intended to eventually get wins for the edit at any point, which means finishing submissions as well. Many new edit makers, myself included at first, think giving some small percentage to these big moves earlier in matches will allow for cool moments where they try to go for their finisher early but get reversed, and it'll function as a sort of tease for when it actually comes out and gets the win later. In reality, this is the least likely of what ends up happening. Instead, you just get a Last Ride or Burning Hammer or whatever other ZOMGBA'GAWDBA'GAWD move busted out in the opening minutes during the feeling-out phase of a match. And it kills any notion of match pacing from which there is no recovery and you might as well just ring the bell and start over. Seeing a finisher/signature/submission come out early lessens the impact of the move psychologically, because it's going to come out again, and again, and the more it comes out without getting a win, the less powerful it seems. Instead, to tease and build up to these big moves, build a moveset with moves that have a similar setup but are weaker, more generic versions of the move. Or target the same body part in a similar way. Or any other variation of "not-the-finisher-but-reminiscent-of-it".
If you want to give your big signature and finishing moves the best chance to end a match: Put your S and F designations on your signature and finishing moves. You get four S's and one F. Ideas on how to use these may vary, but I say put them on your big moves, not just a move that your edit "likes" in a character or story way. Because no one is going to know about that, and even if they do it won't have an impact in the game in any meaningful way. What will have an impact is the damage boost those designations give the moves they're assigned to, with the F giving a higher boost than the S's. In practical terms, this means giving the F to your main finisher will increase the chances that it will keep the opponent down for the pin, or get them to tap out on the submission attempt. Same goes for S's for other signature moves in the moveset, that are meant either to get near falls or end matches as well (including submissions). There are also special skills or critical abilities that take these into account, like the Finisher skill will give an even higher damage boost to your F move.
If you don't want your edit to get opponents into high damage five minutes into a match: Do Not give your edit high offensive parameters for moves that are used early and often throughout the moveset. This is all about pacing. The less time spent in early/medium damage, the less time edits use their (hopefully) standard, feeling-out, setting-up type moves. The earlier your opponent gets into high damage, the earlier your edit starts busting out big moves. This is highly dependent on offensive parameters. The intuitive thing to do would be to think to yourself, "oh hey my guy is awesome at punching, that's his specialty, his whole moveset is basically punches!". So you give him a 10 in punching. Then five minutes into a match, he's busting out his super power punch finisher, but it's not getting a win. Because it's too soon and the FirePro gods won't allow it! Or it does get the win and now you got an OP HossMonster on your hands that nobody wants to play with. To avoid such a cruel fate, generally it's a good idea to scroll through your moveset and keep an eye on which parameters are being used heavily for often-used categories of moves (standing strikes, front grapples, downed opponent, etc.) and keep those numbers modest. The more they're being used, the lower you can take them. If you have a parameter that is being used in just about every single strike and front grapple and downed opponent move, it really should never be higher than a 5. Frankly, more like a 2 or 3 if it's literally being used for every move. This is a pretty in-depth balancing act that goes on, weighing often-used parameters with rarely-used ones, primary vs. secondary parameters, the split between the two, how often and what those splits are, where in the moveset they fall, more here less there and so on, but this is the general idea. The more the parameter is used, the lower you should keep it. This doesn't mean you necessarily have to raise rarely-used parameters super high either. Unless you happen to have a finisher or signature that uses a rarely-used parameter, then you can pump it up to give that move a whole lotta OOMPH without affecting the rest of the moveset and throwing off match pacing. Parameter tweaking could use a post and guide all its own, so I'll just leave it here for now.
Be aware of the specific slots you put certain moves in.
Positioning is really important for doing ground moves, especially early in the match. If you want to see your edit have a shot at following up his fireman's carry with a stomp to the stomach, put the stomp to the stomach in the "head" downed category not the "legs" category. That is because the fireman's carry leaves your edit closer to the opponent's head rather than legs and opponents in "early" damage get up too fast for your edit to have a reliable chance to walk over to their legs. Positioning like this matters throughout all damage categories.
Move Slot also dictates how long opponents stay down after moves, especially in the front/back grapple categories.
Moves in the first four weak slots of front grapple: Opponent stays down short time and gets up non-dazed.
Moves in the four medium slots: Opponent stays down slightly longer and gets up non-dazed.
Moves in the four strong slots: Opponent stays down around same time but gets up dazed.
Moves in the "Weak + Medium" slot: Opponent stays down longest and gets up non-dazed.
Same goes for back grapple but there are less slots. Positioning/slot combination is the same though.
That means you have to make sure what moves you put in each slots. If you want to have a chance at hitting a top rope lariat finisher, you can't fill your strong slots up with submissions, auto-pins (school boy pin, roll-up) or impact pins (powerbomb pin, german suplex pin). Those moves always end with the opponent getting up regularly. But if you put a DDT in one of your strong slots, the opponent will get up dazed (provided the move doesn't happen too early in the match OR doesn't happen after a long chain of moves). That dazed state will allow your edit to have a shot to climb up to the top rope and attempt their flying lariat finisher.
You have to make sure that you have moves in your front and back grapple slots that not only make sense for that edit, but also make sense for potentially setting up other moves you may use - like top rope and downed moves. Every move in your moveset should have a purpose. That purpose may be finishing the match on its own or leading logically to a finisher (doing damage to the body parts the finisher attacks). That purpose may also be setting up a specific move in terms of ring/damage placement - like Mutoh doing his backbreaker to set up his moonsault. You have to make sure that any finishers that aren't in front grapple or standing striking (against standing/walking opponents) are set up properly. The two most common situations in Fire Pro matches are front grapple and standing striking so you can virtually guarantee those two situations will happen at the end of a match. But you have to specifically plan out your moveset and logic to allow for a top rope move to even be attempted.
Make decisions with every move in your moveset that allow for a general plan of attack.
On Corner to Center moves:
I'm admittedly not 100% sure on this, but, I've found that the best way to get one to come out is by using a front grapple that ends with the opponent downed, but not the move user. You can kind of see which will do this in move preview -- anything that ends with the user either standing or kneeling at the end gives them a bit more time to set up the c2c move. It also needs to daze them, so you'll want to use it in one of the big grapple slots. It's possible that the move needs to end with the opponent face up, as well. Take that into consideration if you're making a guy with a c2c finisher!
Defensive parameters are generally much more straightforward than offensive. And there's more room for character-based choices than with offensive parameters, which should be based more on practicality and match pacing and moveset disposition. Meaning it's more possible to set D params according to what a particular edit is likely to be good at defending against. Whereas with offensive parameters, if the character is a strong puncher and you give him a high punch stat, it's going to throw off match pacing. But if a character has a striking background let's say, and is therefore more experienced and more comfortable taking punches and kicks, you can more readily give him higher defensive parameters for those categories. It both makes sense in a character way, and will be reflected and work out okay in the ring.
Just keep in mind to maybe compensate for high D params in one area, with lower ones in others. The striking background guy for example might not be so good at taking more wrestling based bumps. So you'd lower his aerial and power and technical D params, or any others which are used for slams and suplexes and top rope moves and the like. Maybe a guy is a proficient submission artist, so even though you'd want to keep his offensive stretch and joint params relatively low, assuming a submission-heavy moveset, you might infer that he's also experienced in and good at defending against and dealing with submissions. So higher stretch and joint D params wouldn't be out of order. Basically, the kinds of things which you might intuitively assume is the way to set offensive parameters based on an edits strengths and weaknesses, should actually more likely be applied to defensive parameters.
And when I say things like "high" or "low", these are of course all relative terms. If you're working within a closed universe of your own creations, you'll know in general where the points fall for higher, middle and lower tier edits. Otherwise, it just comes down to testing and averages and guesswork + hoping for the best. My general advice would be to take the scale of 1 to 10 for defensive parameters exactly as you instinctively would, at face value. Use 5 as your average, starting point for most params for most edits. Then raise or lower to fit character and pacing from there. Generally a good idea not to go too extreme one way or the other, high or low, unless done so for very specific reasons and upon very focused testing with an eye towards seeing those specific results you're after. Otherwise, staying within the 3-7 range in most cases is probably fine.
Old Baby wrote:
The difficult thing about parameters is like if your edit uses a lot of early strikes, but his finisher is also a strike. So, by turning down punch you're also turning down the strength of his finisher. That's what confuses me, because my first instinct is to make his finisher category a 7-10 in offense.
Beauty is, if the edit is using a lot of strikes it means by the time a finisher using strike params comes out (assuming properly logic'd to only come out late and not very often even then), the damage has already been done to mind body and spirit, and the boost from an S or F will more than likely put the nail in the coffin and make a fall quite likely. The final move itself doesn't have to be particularly damaging if there isn't much damage left to do by the time it is used. I can confirm this with plenty of edits I've made or worked with, with finishing moves having O params of as low as 4 and maybe even less, that reliably put away opponents upon first contact, because that 4 was being used consistently throughout the match, along with other higher params.
This is much more of a mental block than any actual in-game lack of effectiveness. It's hard to let go of the notion that a finisher should be effective, and that effectiveness should be reflected via a high offensive parameter. In practice, effectiveness is moreso determined by the overall pacing of the match and where the finishing move actually comes out and if enough damage has already been done by that point. Even if you have a 10 param'd finisher, if it comes out too early and before the opponent has taken enough hp and spirit and breath damage, it's not going to get the win.
Dude Cactus wrote:
Now personally I've tried working around the late match pins by relying on the special skill "Hardbody." That skill is suppose to make it a bit more difficult to pin your opponent and it has allowed so far for some pins later in the match.
I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to do with this. What do you mean by working around late match pins?
Dude Cactus wrote:
Yes, one takes the risk that you might get that dreaded stomp into pin... but it seems that unless there is an S or an F attached to that stomp the most your might get is a 2.9.
There is literally no risk of this ever happening if you don't have any points in pins at high damage. If an edit doesn't go for a pin late in a match after a stomp, he can't win after a stomp. I think Buddha once said that.
I'm not sure if there is a specific stat that causes an edit to position their opponent this way to be honest, but when it does occur I'd like to take advantage. The strike you perform on the opponent in this position is always the "Standing (MED)" attack. Taking this into account, I always have some sort of kick in this slot so it looks like my edit is kicking their opponent in their stomach/chest/ribs. However, if your edit attacks the legs then having a punch/elbow in this slot would make it look like your edit is slugging at the legs/knee. Same with the arms and the "Low Kick" move.
This is a fairly rare occurrence (even more so if your edit has a low "Cooperation" rating), but like with the tree-of-woe position, I like to have this area covered for when it does come up. During a normal tag match, your edit's partner may set up the opponent for him/her to come crashing into them with a Doomsday Device attack. This doesn't have to be the "Diving Lariat" of course (but it could be!) as long as it's in the "Jump onto Post (BIG)" slot. And equally as important, make sure this move is an attack that doesn't force a unique sell from the opponent. So moves like the Moonsault Attack, Diving Body Attack, Blockbuster or Diving Huracanrana won't work. These moves have to be an attack that causes a generic knockdown state for the opponent, like the Diving Lariat, Missile Dropkick, Diving Shoulderblock even the Tope con Giro would work here. Like I said earlier, a Doomsday Device won't happen all the time but when it does it'll be a shame to miss out on a very cool and rare moment.
I always found when talking about logic it's super helpful to get a visual on what's being talked about (One of the many reasons why Wonderland's Dojo is so great BTW). Before I go further I'd like to reiterate one of Wondy's main themes on this post. Like with anything regarding the edit making process, it's all primarily subjective. What works for me probably won't vibe with you. So my settings are to help anyone struggling with some general advice and guidelines I follow after working with Returns for years. I'm only giving you the foundation, how you build your house is up to you. Anyways, here are examples of the strong grapple section, one of the most frequently utilized section in matches, using Mark Spirals, my main male edit, and Cassandra Blair, my main female edit, who wrestle different styles.
This is what Mark's strong grapple section looks like currently. One key point includes me always including at least one "medium" strength grapple in this section, in Mark's case it's the Frakensteiner Whip. This makes me feel like there is more of a smoother transition from the "middle of the match" to "late match". A lot of the strong grapples (minus the Russian Leg Sweep, which STILL boggles my mind it's a "Strong Grapple" :lol:) include big power moves, slams, complex suplexes and striking combinations. So, for me, having that new "medium" grapple start to show up late match eases the curve more, so to speak. Another key point here is the Ushi Goroshi. It's the highest number at 5% because I want that increased chance for Mark to perform it and follow-up with the Phenomenal Forearm, which requires more specific positioning. While the forearm isn't one of Mark's match enders, it is one of his spots that I'd like to see in a match as often as possible (without him spamming it). The last two points include the "Styles Clash" and the "Spinning Vertical Brainbuster". The Styles Clash is his Finisher and the Brainbuster is one of his Signatures. I set up all my edits by having all their Signatures (and Finishers of course) be potential match enders. Some Signatures are rarer than others, as is the case for Mark's Brainbuster. I feel 3%-5% are the sweet spots for primary finishers in the standing grapple position and 1%-2% to be great for rare moves in the same area.
Here are Cassandra's strong grapples. While there are some similarities with Mark's setup, there are some distinct differences. One of the biggest differences is the odd placement of the "Triangle Lancer". Cassandra is a submission specialist that focuses primarily on the arms. This culminates into her primary finisher, the Cattle Mutilation. As a submission based wrestler, I wanted her to have a submission to tear away at her opponent's arm, but I don't want her to ever end a match with it. This is why the Triangle Lancer is only done at "Medium" damage. This makes sure Cassandra will never win with the move and it makes for great build up and pacing. Her weaker arm damaging moves leads into the Triangle Lancer which leads into her Cattle Mutilation. The reason I'm showing this is to help avoid the scenario Wondy pointed out in his original post. No one wants to see an awesome match end in a weak fashion. I see a lot of edits that have these submissions, that are mostly strong grapples, in the strong grapple section. The issue with that is that it could lead to a potential finish that you may feel is anticlimactic because you know you didn't want your edit's matches to end that way. So, in short, if you want to use strong grapple submissions, but not win with them, then only place them in the "Medium" damage section only.
And since I mentioned it a few times... :lol:
This is Cassandra's "Opponent Down, Face Up" logic setup. I have her Cattle Mutilation at 15% at "Critical Condition" only, because as her main finish I want her to perform it when she truly thinks she can make her opponent tap with it. Then I have a weaker submission move in "Reverse Chikenwing Clutch" to help build up to it, and then I have her stop performing it late in the match. Another point is the pin frequency. I ALWAYS have my edits pin at 15% at "Medium" damage and any flash pins set at 10% at "Medium" damage as well. This is to help create basic match psychology. It's common for real wrestlers to attempt a pin after a simple suplex or bodyslam. Even though the wrestler knows it won't end the match it still creates that suspense to maintain engagement with the fans.
Hopefully, this serves anyone well that enjoys a visual representation of some of the topics that were discussed. If anyone has any questions or would like to see more examples then you're more than welcomed to shoot me a private message. If I feel like it could help others then I'll repost it here. Again, I absolutely love this thread idea. :D
This is Mark Spirals' current front grapple set up. As you can see, it's VERY straightforward and simplistic. While I'm considering having variations of this setup to reflect regional wrestling styles between my edits (like "American Style" and "Japanese Strong Strong"), All of my edits follow a formulaic layout across the entire logic section. The reason for this is three-fold. The first reason being is that I'm VERY meticulous about numbers and such in games. This comes from my love of tactical RPGs where a lot of micromanaging is involved. So that pretty much seeped its way into Fire Pro and my edit making. I would become so obsessed with the numbers and percentages of Fire Pro that I won't feel any of my edits are satisfactory and it'll keep me from moving onto new ones. So this "one size fits all" approach helps ease that anxiety. The second reason is, to put it simply, I don't really care how often an edit performs one of their lesser moves. While we do want each selection of an edit's moveset to having a purpose/reason for being there, it all leads to one of their treasured and more valued finishing spots. So as long as Mark isn't doing his Styles Clash or Spinning Brainbuster 3min into a match then I don't mind him doing anything else. And lastly, since I used Mark like this in Returns for many projects/feds on here and received nothing but positive feedback I figured by building all my edits using his schematic would mean that people will have equally good matches with my entire roster.
As a 4th note, there are some nuances between my edits that make them stand out much more as a result. For example, as of right now, only my Bridget Cromwell and Kurrupt edits have special skills being Blood and Start Dash respectively. Since those two edits would otherwise wrestle the same and therefore have a (theoretically) 50/50 chance at beating any of my other edits, giving them a special skill will lean the advantage in their favor in certain situations with Bridget's advantage coming into play if she bleeds and Kurrupt's coming into play at the start of the match.
I know my methods won't mesh with everyone else's, but this is the approach I've chosen since Returns and I've been having a blast. I also find it helps me pinpoint any issues or inconsistencies that a particular edit may have. That being said, I'm always experimenting with how I can make my edits perform even better to make sure that they not only put out fun matches for myself but for everyone else that wishes to use them.
I don't adhere to most of these ideas, and never really have, yet I still manage to make working, competitive edits. I'm a magician or something.
I've noticed that my edits live and die by their breathing, spirit, and recovery rates along with their Ukemi percentages.
Certain special skills also help. Many of my luchadors have the Stardom skill because they play to the crowd a lot, want them to participate, and feed off of that energy to win matches. They do a lot of taunting, some an insane amount, such as Tali Triton, who has nearly 40% chance to execute a taunt at any given moment - she still loses however and has lost plenty of times. I'm almost certain Stardom is the same reason that VEGA can cruise her way through a match, and for a while, she was the "Destroyer", often ending matches faster than you can blink - her finish in the Reincarnation running move.
My luchadors and highflyers in general have high breathing and recovery rates so they can "go-go-go" for a while. It really helps keep that high pace going for an extended period of time. This works for me, and may not be desirable for others. However, to counter this, their breathing, recovery, and spirit rates drop to Poor when bleeding. As a result, these edits are more likely to lose when busted open. This is especially common when facing hardcore oriented edits - as such, I seldom put them in hardcore matches because it's not very fun to watch most of the time.
That being said, I have a few edits with the Blood special skill. This emulates the "Hardcore resurrection" comeback spot. I use this on two edits currently: Hardcore Bunny and Mako Tagruta respectively. Hardcore Bunny is a deranged, extremely unstable luchadora (ironically enough). Mako is a cannibalistic shark monster with a penchant for blood and body parts - he's kind of like Marsh, but weaker. These two edits are heel edits, meant to pose a challenge for my other edits to surpass.
I have a variety of characters. Some of them act as "boss-level" characters, whereas some are intended to be inexperienced in the art of wrestling and are learning and honing their skills. Some are ridiculously gimmicky and shouldn't be in a wrestling ring. One of the best examples I've come up with is easily my new edit, TIKI: She's a witch doctor and can spit poison and fire at will, sometimes rapidly in succession. This sets her apart from some of my other edits, however this concept is similar to Cherr Nobyll who uses them for a priority spot. My point is, the gimmick is pretty nuts, and it's not something that I've noticed is very common. It shakes things up, especially when she's put in matches against "regular" people. And yeah, she loses matches too.
Most of my edits sit on 20/20/20 for their Ukemi progression. My heels are generally 0/0/50 to emulate dominance in the early and middle part of the match but drop off near the end - but this isn't always the case, especially because my monster heels tend to also be damage sponges - like Joana Paea, who can take a ton of punishment before being defeated. As a result of her low Ukemi late match, this causes her to be eliminated early on in Battle Royals and Tag Team Elimination matches. Occasionally edits will be 20/40/0, which is for my Cena/Hogan style edits, who exhibit a heroic comeback when paired with the Rage skill.
When it comes to offensive parameters, my edits usually display a 7 or 8 in one dominant category and will be around 5 or 6 for other areas, and even less for areas where they see little to no use at all. This conflicts with the idea that "the more moves of an attribute the edit has the less the parameter rating should be." Some edits have two or three 7 parameters and drastically lowered elsewhere. These are edits that specialize in a certain form of fighting style.
One such edit is Kaishida Tachibana: She's considered a "mid-playthrough boss-type" and will rushdown the opponent to try and defeat them as quickly as possible. She has 7s in Punch and Kick and does a lot of punching and kicking as you could probably guess. To counter this, she has poor recovery, breathing, and spirit rates. She'll win 10 minutes or she'll lose just as quickly. As a result, I will almost never book her in a championship match setting. However, I do book her to shake things up in the middle of a Battle Royal.
My damage sponge edits - I have a few of them, have multiple 7s and 8s in their defense parameters. They're intended to be difficult to keep down, but don't always win. Jessica Shields is probably one of my better damage sponge babyface edits. She'll take a lot of damage, but may not be able to etch out that big comeback.
Flash pins are a gimmick for my edits. Some of them will try to win at all costs, using every pin move they know how to execute. Mira Torres is the prime example on my roster. School Boy, Esparda, Lighting Speed, you name it, she's probably got it. I never have ground pins over 0% and almost always priority a signature to a grounded pinfall. If it's the Rare finish, I'll priority it to a pinfall as well. If it's a submission finisher, I'll priority it from a specific limb targeted move, or a big move. In Frigyd Wintyrs case, I use the Double Underhook slam priority chained directly to the Cattle Mutilation. That is her finishing sequence which gets her the win most often.
Hopefully someone will find this useful. This is solely to do with appearances, and not logic/parameters. Also all personal opinions and like logic, appearances are meant to be experimented with.
SKIN TONES:Skin tone 1 is great for unconventional edits who are often not human—go nuts with the oranges, greens, reds, whatever. Skin tone 2 is good and solid for white people—like, standard-ass American white people, most white Europeans, really pasty white people, etc. You can get away with skin tone 1 for, say, a Sheamus, but it's hard to nail down the colour.
Like warm and cold colours I'll get to in a sec, skin tones are warm and cold too. Skin tone 1, again, is kinda unconventional, while two to four seem to go from warmest to coolest—it's about how the "palette" so to speak, absorbs light. Two is the warmest, whilst three is somewhere in-between the extremes, and four is the coolest. There is variation in them, and variation in skin tones, so don't be afraid to experiment. And just because someone is black or white doesn't necessarily mean their shade of black or white looks the same as other people. Again, experiment to give your edits some variation, especially when it comes to non-white wrestlers.
Keep this in mind and experiment. Not all shades of white and black and everything in between are the same. Consider your wrestler's nationality/heritage, or even their gimmick/who they work for/the time period they worked in. Take, Hulk Hogan and John Cena for example. Hogan's white, but he was TANNED AF. Tans were the thing of Hogan's time. Though logic dictates he could use skin tone 2, that tan says skin tone 3—or a very "orange" hue in skin tone 2 to me. Cena's a lot more reflective of the times—not tanned af. Just a normal-ass white dude skintone.
Skin tone 3, it seems, is generally agreed upon as a good basis for most Asian wrestlers. I've found this is a great skintone for Mexican, Latino, Middle Eastern, and Native wrestlers as well. It can also work for tanned wrestlers. A Hogan, for example. I have a male stripper wrestler who is white as fuck, but because his whole thing is that he's a male stripper who uses tanning machines, I use skin tone 3 for him—I act as though his skin isn't white. I've tried to experiment with more "Olive-toned" wrestlers here as well, but don't know if I'm sold on it yet. I'd probably lean towards tone 2 for more "Olive-skinned" wrestlers.
And finally, skin tone 4 is the skin tone to use for black wrestlers.
I personally find that when I'm creating a white person I tend towards pink/red tones as a base, then with Asians, it is a mixture of brown/yellow, leaning more towards yellow. With Latin people it's more orange-ish, for the most part, and black people, it's brownish-orange, leaning more towards brown. Again, there's variation in everything, and I try to pay close attention to heritage and gimmick affecting skin colour. For example, an Italian-American is going to be a different shade of white than an Irishman. When I said I use more orange-ish tones for Latin people, that's a bit of an oversimplification. For example, a lot of people may "present" white, and there's a lot of variation in that skintone. So don't be afraid to play around. For skin tones, it's only a few ticks in one direction is often more than enough to produce drastic results.
For all skin tones, I find that it helps to picture a real wrestler or person as a basis, have a picture up of them as I'm creating a wrestler, and just keep experimenting with the shade until I'm happy. Generally speaking, I also just leave highlighting on "H1." "H2" might be good if you're really going for an oiled-up dude/dudette. If you're going for a completely unconventional skintone, like, say, an alien, then go wild with highlighting.
Also, very small thing, but something I've totally done before. If you're using another wrestler as a base for a new wrestler, MAKE SURE that you're adjusting skintones if they're a different skintone. I can't tell you how many times I've forgot to do that, then discovered after I made someone that, say, everything is skintone 3, but I was a dumbass and left their thighs as skintone 4.
BALD CAPS: omfg use bald caps, especially for masked wrestlers. If you've got the layers, use a bald cap, because from some angles you'll see little holes and it will be a weird little niggling thing that will absolutely infuriate you.
BLACK AND WHITE : don't use 0, 0, 0 and 255, 255, 255 unless you absolutely 100% are deliberately doing it. Especially for black. Get some grey up in that bitch so we can see some shading, unless you're trying to make it DARKER THAN THE CENTRE OF A BLACK HOLE black.
And white: instill a little bit of grey/shade from whatever colour you're complimenting the white with to just give things some pop/realism. It'll help balance things. Again, you just want some shading to everything.
In printing (something I am very, very familiar with), there's a common practice when it comes to black: DO NOT USE 100% BLACK. Your black ends up printing out like a very muted, faded grey. And that doesn't exactly happen in Fire Pro if you use 0, 0, 0 black. But the same kind of effect happens. You don't get a deep, rich black so much as you get "an absence of light." So, in printing, you generally throw some cyan up in that bitch, and you produce a much deeper, and ultimately darker black. You won't produce a darker black in Fire Pro than 0, 0, 0 with, say, 15, 15, 15, but you'll produce a much more natural and rich-looking shade of black that picks up shading.
Colours in general: the advice about black and white applies to colours, too. Don't go to the absolute max of a colour unless you absolutely are doing it for a very certain effect. Get some shading in there, dawg. Even just moving a little bit towards white/black will help immensely.
More than just contrasting colours on the colour spectrum, experiment with the "temperature" of certain colours. Say, for example, you have a very bright shade of red and you want to use a similarly warm colour like pink. Maybe don't use a very bright shade of pink because the colours might bleed together. That said, if two colours are on very opposite ends of the spectrum—yellow and blue, say, you can be a bit more liberal about using a deep blue and a deep yellow if that's the effect you're going for. And never shy away from using the same colour as long as you're experimenting with shading within that colour. For example, a dark, almost-black shade of purple and lilac purple is one of my favourite colour schemes. And a deep, "royal" blue and baby blue? *chef kissing sounds* Amazing.
WARM AND DARK COLOURS: don't be afraid to break the mould, but just as a basic guide, if you're stuck on making an edit's appearance pop, adhere to the guiding principle of WARM AND DARK COLOURS. And at least at first, make the contrast as obvious as possible. Dark purple and, say, a vibrant, popping yellow. Black and virtually anything.
Or, a more subtle example: Chris Jericho's more recent run.
Purple and blue, at first glance, shouldn't work. Purple is just a shade of blue, after all. But Jericho uses a lighter, vibrant shade of blue. The material of the blue is also shiny/sparkly, whilst the material of the purple is a more "natural" shade, which helps the blue to stand out. Don't be afraid to experiment with the highlighting in the game to get this kind of effect. Say, for example, you could use "N" or "H1" on the your base trunks, with a "H2" or "H3" or even "H4" on your "accent" colour/design to get the desired effect. I personally find H2 to be the sweet spot for "normal" sparkly designs, whilst H3 or H4 are a very deliberate effect and depending on your colour, can wash it out. H4 can look very washed out, which is fine, but adjust your colour if you need to. The use of black in this design is interesting, too. It helps "ground" the blue and makes it feel like it isn't just floating there on the tights.
Also, I find "H3" a good sweet spot for a kind of "vinyl/leather" effect on black pants. You can go a bit darker on your shade of black than you normally would because of this.
The fallback for me when it comes to designs, personally, is black with a virtually any colour—but if you're using, say, a more "cool" colour like purple or blue, and you still want them to pop, just use a lighter shade—a nice baby blue, or kind of lilac purple, say. Or, again, use the highlighting. White can look really good as a base colour too, but be sure your white has some depth to it rather than just "OMG THIS IS BLINDING" white.
Orrrrrr be crazy and use a darker shade if you want. Just do it deliberately, for a very specific effect, rather than losing the colour.
Also, don't be afraid to use a "warm" colour as a base for your trunks/tights/etc. Just, again, make sure, your contrast is evident.
Say, CJ Fresh's alternate attire:
Pink isn't exactly the most "warm" colour like a burnt orange or a red, but it isn't a cool colour either. I utilized a deeper purple to give the attire some contrast. More importantly, though, I gave the shade of pink more of a "pastel" vibe to contrast the purple. Look at, say, his other alternate attire here:
This pink is very vibrant, very "popping." But if I this shade of punk in his other attire, it the purple would get lost because both the pink and purple would be too vibrant and bright. Meanwhile, on this attire, even though the pink and green are both very vibrant, they're on such different ends of the colour spectrum that it works.
Also, for that first alternate attire with the "pastel" pink base, I played around with highlighting, too, which helps contrast the purple and pink.
What else? Let's take another look at Jericho and why something that shouldn't work on paper ends up looking pretty rad.
What I call his "Rainmaker" attire because Okada has a very similar approach with his attire. The purple and red in this attire are very similar—how do I describe it? They're very "basic", very... just clean shades of purple and red. But they end up working because there's enough variation in the design, and the shiny "gold" and black helps break up everything enough to make it work. It's not as "clean" as say the purple/blue attire, or various other attires he's worn, but I like it. Even just in real life, as you can see, the black isn't, say, "0, 0, 0" black. And the gold on the sides helps break up the red and purple, where as black on the sides would have been overkill. If you're going to use colours that may blend together, use some designs to break things up. And don't be afraid to throw in a third or even fourth "base" shade to help ground things—generally I'd lean towards a shade rather than a colour, so I'd use black, grey, or white, if the main focus of your attire is a colour.
Using Jericho, again, you can see how he uses black and white to anchor everything so the gold doesn't get lost in the red. The black and red are not only design flairs to give the gold a "canvas" to rest on so to speak, but they're used as accents throughout to break up the monotony of red and just act as really good "trim" for everything.
Also, subtle thing, but if you want to give your blacks and whites "texture", don't be afraid to throw in a very dark grey or slightly lighter/darker shade of white and use the camo, spots, or stripes designs. You can even use the same shade as your base colour if you'd like, and play around with highlighting.
If you use two or more of the same edit parts, you can form a small outline that you can use for a lot of things. It's noticeable in matches as well if you use the color combinations well enough, and it is so useful whether it be for forming thin outlines, or for outlines of parts that do not have outlines. EXAMPLE:
Dakkon posted this breakdown from the old boards of Showmanship, Flexibility, Discretion, Cooperation and Touchwork on the question about touchwork post that I find SUPER helpful for reference, figured it fit nicely here as well.