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Post by satch4684 on Oct 6, 2018 20:31:23 GMT
I am more or less trying to make all fighters balanced and watch CPU fights, so I've started as a standard 5% ukemi throughout for everyone.
So with that setting in mind, a few exceptions:
any characters at 0%, will they be severely unbalanced? I was hoping I could do that with a few who basically can control match in beginning/mid but if they don't win early enough they might lose.
Also, what would be a good setting if I want the opposite effect in others? I guess Rocky kind of comebacks, but without the extreme that it is guaranteed he will take a beating but win in the end.
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Post by dnmt on Oct 7, 2018 20:18:21 GMT
Having everyone with the same Ukemi doesn't make sense. A classic babyface shouldn't have the same Ukemi as a monster heel. I'd only keep Ukemi uniform at 0 for like an MMA promotion.
Here's some example of my edits:
Kazuchika Okada (usually gets a lot of offense in the middle, more of a heel): 5% / 35% / 50%
Kenny Omega (more of an underdog babyface, gets beat down in middle): 5% / 45% / 50%
KUSHIDA (regular babyface, could probably up his middle Ukemi to 50): 10% / 40% / 40%
El Desperado (heel, usually on the offensive): 5% / 30% / 25%
EDIT - I recently changed this up dramatically and have much better results. I kept most people around their defaults, which is 25/25/25. Main event guys seem to be at 25/35/25 or 25/30/25, meaning they gain a bit more Ukemi in the middle and can kick out of more moves at the end. For more heel workers, I lower some of the 25s to 20s.
I am also thinking about giving a huge list of guys the Finisher special skill to ensure there is a better chance of their finishers ending the match.
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rsws
JIM MINY
Posts: 66
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Post by rsws on Oct 7, 2018 21:27:47 GMT
Ukemi was the trickiest game mechanic for me for soooo long. I'm only just now understanding how it works, fully.
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Post by DM_PSX on Oct 8, 2018 2:23:45 GMT
It turns off auto reversals where the opponent would fail a move. It exchanges damage now for a boost later on.
In North American wrestling, we have the same match template everyone follows.
The referee is stupid. The rules favor the heel. The babyface is in an uphill battle against a cheating heel, a bad ruleset, and a stupid referee. The match is put together to play on people's emotions.
SHINE: When the match starts, it's established that the babyface can easily outwrestle the heel. The babyface plays fair and uses his wrestling moves. The heel can't keep up and eventually gets frustrated. The babyface has full control of the match.
HEAT: The heel starts playing dirty to gain control of the match. Either closed fists, a low blow, or anything to instantly be in control of the match. The referee won't see it. The heel will start a rough beating of the babyface that lasts the majority of the match. Every once in awhile the babyface will get in a move called a 'hope spot' with will trigger a false comeback, and the heel will keep using dirty tactics to regain control.
The referee never sees the heel cheat.
The referee believes the heel every time he accuses the babyface of cheating.
The heel eventually does something REALLY PUNISHING such as a piledriver or a very punishing submission hold to secure the win.
COMEBACK: The babyface is fed up! They either powered through a submission hold with the help of empowering crowd chants, or they snapped. Up until now, they were naively trying to win by fair play and wrestling, but now it's a straight up fight. Both guys are hitting each other with their biggest moves and trading false finishes.
Then someone wins, but the type of win and decisiveness of it depends on if they are working a program together, or if they need to have another match, etc... Like when a heel Flair came to your local territory. His job was to get his ass kicked and then barely escape with the title. He'd get his heat and the local top guy would be put over huge because he should have won the belt.
Some babyfaces don't shine, because they are survivors. They take a beating and just survive until the end.
Some heels don't get dominated in the opening segment as much because they are dominant heels. This creates a bit of a different environment though. Because then they are assholes, as opposed to the 'real' heel who HAD to cheat because it was already established that the babyface could work circles around them.
Some heels don't get a lot of heat because they comedy acts, failures, etc depending on their role on the show, or spot on the card. Wrestling is still just ensemble cast live theater, and sometimes you're just the piss break match guy.
When you have your ukemi set right, and the heel has the appropriate moveset and logic to deliver a mid match beat down, you can sim some amazing matches. I like to use the mid damage logic for the heel to spam rough moves and lay on brutal sub holds. Low blows galore, pile driver into a buffalo sleeper, etc...
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Post by Severla on Oct 8, 2018 23:32:04 GMT
If you're after balance, just leave everything at the 20/25/15 default.
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Post by satch4684 on Oct 9, 2018 16:00:21 GMT
thanks for the information from all, I do understand the babyface/heel in relation to ukemi, but I am trying to do my own thing here rather than use the standard formula put forth by wrestling.
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Post by DM_PSX on Oct 9, 2018 16:50:38 GMT
thanks for the information from all, I do understand the babyface/heel in relation to ukemi, but I am trying to do my own thing here rather than use the standard formula put forth by wrestling. Then just use 0/0/0 or 100/100/100 depending on if you want a boost or not. Otherwise it's a random chance out of 100 for every grapple, and you can never have true balance that way because the RNG will always go into someone's favour. If you do 50/50/50, that doesn't mean it happens 50% of the time. It means there is a 50% chance of it happening every time. So one fighter might trigger it every time, while another fighter doesn't ever trigger it because that's just the way the die rolls went. |
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Post by lordeb2 on Oct 10, 2018 17:31:56 GMT
Can you give some Ukemi examples that trend toward the various match templates? I.E. Ukemi settings for a face that tends to "shine" or heel that tends to get "shined"; and so on. I'm looking for more/better ways to differentiate guys at various levels throughout my roster. Currently I'm mostly using points (unreliable, at least with the relatively tight spread I have) and % to go for a finish spot in large/critical (messy for guys with non-traditional finishers: subs/corner to center/back) It turns off auto reversals where the opponent would fail a move. It exchanges damage now for a boost later on. In North American wrestling, we have the same match template everyone follows. The referee is stupid. The rules favor the heel. The babyface is in an uphill battle against a cheating heel, a bad ruleset, and a stupid referee. The match is put together to play on people's emotions. SHINE: When the match starts, it's established that the babyface can easily outwrestle the heel. The babyface plays fair and uses his wrestling moves. The heel can't keep up and eventually gets frustrated. The babyface has full control of the match. HEAT: The heel starts playing dirty to gain control of the match. Either closed fists, a low blow, or anything to instantly be in control of the match. The referee won't see it. The heel will start a rough beating of the babyface that lasts the majority of the match. Every once in awhile the babyface will get in a move called a 'hope spot' with will trigger a false comeback, and the heel will keep using dirty tactics to regain control. The referee never sees the heel cheat. The referee believes the heel every time he accuses the babyface of cheating. The heel eventually does something REALLY PUNISHING such as a piledriver or a very punishing submission hold to secure the win. COMEBACK: The babyface is fed up! They either powered through a submission hold with the help of empowering crowd chants, or they snapped. Up until now, they were naively trying to win by fair play and wrestling, but now it's a straight up fight. Both guys are hitting each other with their biggest moves and trading false finishes. Then someone wins, but the type of win and decisiveness of it depends on if they are working a program together, or if they need to have another match, etc... Like when a heel Flair came to your local territory. His job was to get his ass kicked and then barely escape with the title. He'd get his heat and the local top guy would be put over huge because he should have won the belt. Some babyfaces don't shine, because they are survivors. They take a beating and just survive until the end. Some heels don't get dominated in the opening segment as much because they are dominant heels. This creates a bit of a different environment though. Because then they are assholes, as opposed to the 'real' heel who HAD to cheat because it was already established that the babyface could work circles around them. Some heels don't get a lot of heat because they comedy acts, failures, etc depending on their role on the show, or spot on the card. Wrestling is still just ensemble cast live theater, and sometimes you're just the piss break match guy. When you have your ukemi set right, and the heel has the appropriate moveset and logic to deliver a mid match beat down, you can sim some amazing matches. I like to use the mid damage logic for the heel to spam rough moves and lay on brutal sub holds. Low blows galore, pile driver into a buffalo sleeper, etc... |
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Post by mauzer33 on Oct 10, 2018 20:32:52 GMT
So just to clarify, 'cause I'm always confused on this, does higher the percentage mean the more likely the chance ukemi will "activate" and build up?
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Post by Severla on Oct 11, 2018 1:56:29 GMT
Yes.
Larger moves will auto-reverse at low damage (go into 1p vs 2p and try a large grapple and watch it fail), while Smaller moves (and all moves in general in large damage) have an RNG reverse that can occur.
Ukemi at 20% means there's a 20% chance that the move will instead be allowed to fire off, building your hidden meter up.
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Post by DM_PSX on Oct 11, 2018 3:43:35 GMT
Can you give some Ukemi examples that trend toward the various match templates? I.E. Ukemi settings for a face that tends to "shine" or heel that tends to get "shined"; and so on. I'm looking for more/better ways to differentiate guys at various levels throughout my roster. Currently I'm mostly using points (unreliable, at least with the relatively tight spread I have) and % to go for a finish spot in large/critical (messy for guys with non-traditional finishers: subs/corner to center/back) mid damage logic for the heel to spam rough moves and lay on brutal sub holds. Low blows galore, pile driver into a buffalo sleeper, etc...There really isn't various match templates. What I told you was pretty much it. There is one standard singles match that everyone tends to follow, and they just change window dressing. It's the same template as the standard story arc. Hero shines (inciting incident), hero suffers major setback, hero prevails. Watch Kurt Vonnegut's "The Shape Of Stories" on youtube, it's 4 minutes long. Some wrestlers are a bit different. But they still follow the rules. Heels are mostly heels because of how they wrestle, not their character. They can't win straight up, so they do shitty things. Some are dweebs who are huge wimps and just cheat. Some are sadistic and like to punish their opponent (HHH). Some are good technicians, but not good enough to win straight up, so they resort to cheating (eg Eddie/Heel Owen). This is mostly down to moveset and logic. Dominant heels don't need to get shined on early on. They don't cheat to win, they are dominant, sadistic, and just punish. Some faces don't shine, because they are extreme underdogs. They go right to the heat, so they have like 50/75/50 for their ukemi. They have shitty moves in weak and medium grapples. They just survive by holding on, then they get a crit rollup or get angry enough to pull out the big moves at the end. Some places don't rely on good guys vs badguys and their matches are just a series of spots(RVD vs Jerry Lynn), or like NOAH where it's more serious but still h as structure. The matches are about 'how much can you take and still keep going". They could both have a 25/25/25 or so. If this gets too high, the opponent might land a lot of big moves too early on, and you miss out on those cool auto reversals moves. There's no wrong answers here. Just like real life, not every wrestler meshes well with every other wrestler. You're not going to book The World Warrrior Loki vs The Boy Diva Rick Cataldo and expect good results. You can have a guy that just pins after 27 low blows. Its all well and good, and it's your little wrestling universe. The standard formula is just the one that hooks audiences and draws money. Ukemi is a meter that fills up when you toggle it during grapples, and gives a spirit boost when it maxes out. It can be used to sim heel vs face dynamics, the 'how much can you take and keep getting up' fighting spirit style of puroresu and etc. You also have to combine skills, logic and moveset to make it shine. Tag teams are a whole separate thing. So just to clarify, 'cause I'm always confused on this, does higher the percentage mean the more likely the chance ukemi will "activate" and build up? Yes. Most of those percentages are the % chance something has to happen every given time. 50% doesn't mean something will happen 50% of the time, it means every time it can happen there is a new 50% chance. |
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Post by lordeb2 on Oct 11, 2018 17:07:49 GMT
I think I follow what you are saying story wise; and the different types of heel/face behavior. What I'm really asking is how to map the numbers to the different types of behavior.
For instance, you give examples of 50/75/50 as a good ukemi line for an extreme underdog face; and 25/25/25 is a good line for a spot monkey or equally sustained offense/defense until someone gives out. Similarly what would good lines be for a traditional face? A dominant face? Dominant Heel? Cheat to win? Chickenshit heel? ETC.
Should I simply start at the 20/25/15 default and tweak the small number up/down for early match dominance (down for more)? Medium up/down for mid-match control (down for more)? Large up/down for comeback potential (up for more)?
Naturally the move sets and logic would need to match the intended behavior.
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Post by Love Wilcox on Oct 11, 2018 20:16:38 GMT
An extreme example could be:
Babyface - 0/30/15
Heel - 30/0/20
The actual numbers aren't whats important but the ratio. Low numbers = high reversal rate/less "selling" , higher numbers = fewer reversals/more "selling". Of course by "selling" I'm refering to the willingness to take damage.
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rsws
JIM MINY
Posts: 66
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Post by rsws on Oct 11, 2018 23:46:18 GMT
Most of my guys have ukemi spreads that add up to 60 (10/30/20 for example). I figure that way, my wrestlers can all be competitive, and the differences in how they sell are pretty subtle, while still kind of influencing the match.
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Post by DM_PSX on Oct 12, 2018 3:02:02 GMT
I think I follow what you are saying story wise; and the different types of heel/face behavior. What I'm really asking is how to map the numbers to the different types of behavior. For instance, you give examples of 50/75/50 as a good ukemi line for an extreme underdog face; and 25/25/25 is a good line for a spot monkey or equally sustained offense/defense until someone gives out. Similarly what would good lines be for a traditional face? A dominant face? Dominant Heel? Cheat to win? Chickenshit heel? ETC. Should I simply start at the 20/25/15 default and tweak the small number up/down for early match dominance (down for more)? Medium up/down for mid-match control (down for more)? Large up/down for comeback potential (up for more)? Naturally the move sets and logic would need to match the intended behavior. There is nothing special about the numbers on their own. 20/25/15 is more for the AJPW style the game was made to sim. It simply means, every time there is a grapple, the game picks a number between 1 and 100, and then it uses your percentage to decide if the AI uses ukemi during that grapple or not. So you could have 100%, use ukemi 100% of the time, and still never lose a grapple. The higher the number, the more likely UKEMI will be used. It's just a tool to skew a match a certain way. As for the numbers, just watch the wrestler in question, or if it's a original edit, just sim and tweak until you're happy. Write down their beginning, middle, and end match game plans and build around that. For a chickenshit, find out WHY they are a chickenshit heel. Use LOTS of ukemi the whole match (don't worry about getting heat), and use lots of shitty moves, like rear grapples (back punch, low blow, chop block, NEW low blow into roll up etc...). A dominant face is Goldberg. He never used ukemi. Give him the appropriate special skills and spam his power moves with high stats. Traditional face is what I described above. They shine at the beginning (almost no ukemi), then they get their ass kicked the entire middle of the match (75), only coming up for hope spots, and then 50 at the end. Traditional heel gets 75 for the start because the face is shining on him. Then 25 for the middle because he should be in control of the match and spamming punishing moves, and then 50 at the end. I put 50 for them both at the end because this is the part where the fight is on and the face is making his comeback, and both guys are hitting their big moves. It also allows the heel to get a spirit boost late match too. But you could just as easily set it to 0 or 100 for both. There is no right answer.
You could have a guy who gets his ass kicked all match (90/90/10) and then 'wakes up' when he's had enough. Mix it with the recovery going up when he sees his own blood and etc... Then you have the opposite, a guy who swings for the fences right out of the gate, and then gets gassed (10/10/90). |
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