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Post by dnmt on Sept 10, 2018 21:36:15 GMT
Makes sense. I am still trying to figure out a way to lengthen out the small and middle damage stages of the match so I can lengthen the matches w/o having pointless bullshit at the end when guys should be going for the finish. Upping Discretion helped as guys will breath a lot more, and having stalling/circling in small does as well. Like most stats, I'm sure it's subjective....but, what are you putting your Discretion at? (a few examples) I have Okada and Omega at 95% right now. Might lower it to 90, but it was based on something in maikeru’s guide in the Guide section of the forums. |
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Post by dnmt on Sept 10, 2018 21:38:17 GMT
Found it:
Most average wrestlers will have a discretion of around 60-70 percent. 70 percent is also a good sweet spot for setting up corner to center signatures and finishers. As previously mentioned, more conservative wrestlers -- and wrestlers who try to pace themselves for marathon technical sessions may have discretion of 80 to 100. An example of this would be Ric Flair, whether we're talking about him in his 80s prime or his twilight years.
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Post by sofia on Sept 10, 2018 22:55:50 GMT
What discretion does:
- at less than 33, the wrestler will rarely if ever stop to catch his breath. Using the front facelock -> elbow causes the wrestler to drop his opponent right where he's already standing. It can generally be seen as a level where the wrestler disregards their own limits to focus entirely on attacking the opponent. As such, it's probably best saved for wrestlers who barely do actual wrestling - your Mister Pogos, your modern Takashi Iizukas, etc.
- from 33 to 67 or so, the wrestler will become increasingly likely to catch their breath. Using the front facelock will cause the wrestler to move towards a corner. The vast majority of NJPW wrestlers are in a range of about 35 - 60, presumably to reflect how late into a match they will stop and sell the impact of the match on their bodies. They will be somewhat likely to use the tree of woe hanging position in a corner.
- above 67, wrestlers will drop their opponents into the center of the ring and catch their breath more frequently. At high discretion, wrestlers will also opt never to set their opponents up into the tree of woe.
Generally speaking, you'll want to set discretion lower - but not below 35 - if you're making someone who works a harder-hitting style with few pauses, and higher for a more methodical pace. Essentially, deciding on how much you want to nuke breathing and/or make it so that they only stop the action once or twice a match. I'd say anything above 70 is an edge case, because you're losing out on the tree of woe as an option; but that's just me.
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Post by dnmt on Sept 10, 2018 23:19:31 GMT
What discretion does: - at less than 33, the wrestler will rarely if ever stop to catch his breath. Using the front facelock -> elbow causes the wrestler to drop his opponent right where he's already standing. It can generally be seen as a level where the wrestler disregards their own limits to focus entirely on attacking the opponent. As such, it's probably best saved for wrestlers who barely do actual wrestling - your Mister Pogos, your modern Takashi Iizukas, etc. - from 33 to 67 or so, the wrestler will become increasingly likely to catch their breath. Using the front facelock will cause the wrestler to move towards a corner. The vast majority of NJPW wrestlers are in a range of about 35 - 60, presumably to reflect how late into a match they will stop and sell the impact of the match on their bodies. They will be somewhat likely to use the tree of woe hanging position in a corner. - above 67, wrestlers will drop their opponents into the center of the ring and catch their breath more frequently. At high discretion, wrestlers will also opt never to set their opponents up into the tree of woe. Generally speaking, you'll want to set discretion lower - but not below 35 - if you're making someone who works a harder-hitting style with few pauses, and higher for a more methodical pace. Essentially, deciding on how much you want to nuke breathing and/or make it so that they only stop the action once or twice a match. I'd say anything above 70 is an edge case, because you're losing out on the tree of woe as an option; but that's just me. So 90% is probably way too high, and I do notice almost too many front facelock > elbow in the middle sections of the match. So you'd cap Okada/Omega at 70%? Maybe 75%? |
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Post by sofia on Sept 11, 2018 0:08:50 GMT
Even that seems too high.
The thing about them is that I don't really recall them stopping to catch their breath very often in matches - both Okada and Kenny seem to be endless fountains of energy at this stage in their careers, only stopping when they absolutely must.
I can't say I'm an absolute expert but I figured the 40% or so they had as defaults was fine.
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gbm
JIM MINY
Posts: 76
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Post by gbm on Sept 11, 2018 0:28:43 GMT
What discretion does: - at less than 33, the wrestler will rarely if ever stop to catch his breath. Using the front facelock -> elbow causes the wrestler to drop his opponent right where he's already standing. It can generally be seen as a level where the wrestler disregards their own limits to focus entirely on attacking the opponent. As such, it's probably best saved for wrestlers who barely do actual wrestling - your Mister Pogos, your modern Takashi Iizukas, etc. - from 33 to 67 or so, the wrestler will become increasingly likely to catch their breath. Using the front facelock will cause the wrestler to move towards a corner. The vast majority of NJPW wrestlers are in a range of about 35 - 60, presumably to reflect how late into a match they will stop and sell the impact of the match on their bodies. They will be somewhat likely to use the tree of woe hanging position in a corner. - above 67, wrestlers will drop their opponents into the center of the ring and catch their breath more frequently. At high discretion, wrestlers will also opt never to set their opponents up into the tree of woe. Generally speaking, you'll want to set discretion lower - but not below 35 - if you're making someone who works a harder-hitting style with few pauses, and higher for a more methodical pace. Essentially, deciding on how much you want to nuke breathing and/or make it so that they only stop the action once or twice a match. I'd say anything above 70 is an edge case, because you're losing out on the tree of woe as an option; but that's just me. Answers like this are why I ask questions. lol Thank you! So I should be more specific then....in my attempts to recreate the old Federation days of WWF, I am having difficulty finding that sweet spot for some of my personal favorite wrestlers; King Kong Bundy and Big John Studd to be exact. I don't ever recall them being involved in any marathon matches, and don't really ever recall them needing to stop and catch their breath for any extended period of time. At the same time, I don't want them soooooo gassed that Bundy can't even complete his corner running Avalance; and that's what's happening....he literally stops mid run to catch his breath. lol So any input on this would be great. How do the wrestlers of that era fall into the Discretion category? |
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Post by sofia on Sept 11, 2018 0:46:15 GMT
Man... I'm not really sure. For both of them, at the very least, I'd consider a short-match build. Which is to say, giving them high attack parameters and lowish defense params, either overall low or just low in obvious weaknesses for big guys.
It might not hurt to give Bundy higher discretion because he's gassing so much.
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gbm
JIM MINY
Posts: 76
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Post by gbm on Sept 11, 2018 0:53:12 GMT
Man... I'm not really sure. For both of them, at the very least, I'd consider a short-match build. Which is to say, giving them high attack parameters and lowish defense params, either overall low or just low in obvious weaknesses for big guys. It might not hurt to give Bundy higher discretion because he's gassing so much. Right on. I just gave a read of your write up in the Guide section, good stuff. I'll try that and see what happens. I currently have his Ukemi at 0/3/5 ....and he's getting wrecked in singles competition. I just don't want him getting tossed around so much, so I thought the low Ukemi stats would help him go for reversals as much as possible....but I'm not sure if I'm succeeding in that. Crud, it's just THESE TWO wrestlers I really want to get right, because they looked so specific when they fought. |
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Post by skywalkersview on Sept 11, 2018 0:57:20 GMT
*reads all the post, goes to edit my personal character... again.* lol
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Post by Severla on Sept 11, 2018 1:06:04 GMT
Potentially, you could give them better breathing in Skills (or just make sure theyre not loaded down with low affinity moves).
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Post by Mista Li on Sept 11, 2018 8:03:45 GMT
I've always thought it'd look great if the edits switched stance while circling.. Say if they temporarily switched to the 'wrestling' stance, it would simulate that 'jockeying for position' phase early on in the match where they feel each out. You see this more in NJPW's junior matches than say, in WWE. Best quick example I could find:
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Post by wrasslinisreal on Sept 13, 2018 16:01:22 GMT
I like to increase the percentages for later in the match to add to the pacing; I like a more realistic feel and having the edit take a breather when the opponent is down is cool. Also, almost all of my edits have the adjust pants taunt when the opponent is down; it just makes the edits seem a bit more believable. Seems minor but to me it makes a bit of a difference.
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Post by kikrusher99 on Sept 13, 2018 16:31:30 GMT
I like to increase the percentages for later in the match to add to the pacing; I like a more realistic feel and having the edit take a breather when the opponent is down is cool. Also, almost all of my edits have the adjust pants taunt when the opponent is down; it just makes the edits seem a bit more believable. Seems minor but to me it makes a bit of a difference. That's a damn good idea. Especially for Misawa. |
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Post by Severla on Sept 13, 2018 17:17:57 GMT
My masked Edits are all getting 'Wipe Face' at like 10-15% on Opponent Down/Outside because it's the closest thing to 'fixing the mask' that I could manage.
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Post by DM_PSX on Sept 13, 2018 21:51:17 GMT
Nah, they'll only breathe when the other wrestler is down, and that's dictated by Discretion. I think stalling should be avoided outside of Small; unless you're trying to make a character who deliberately avoids confrontation. Generally, the NJPW defaults have lowish discretion, so as to force them to only breathe when they're put into low stamina state (i.e. breathing heavily), as part of its more Americanized pacing these days. Makes sense. I am still trying to figure out a way to lengthen out the small and middle damage stages of the match so I can lengthen the matches w/o having pointless bullshit at the end when guys should be going for the finish. Upping Discretion helped as guys will breath a lot more, and having stalling/circling in small does as well. Most wrestlers pad out a match by using low damage strikes. Doesn't matter if you're watching NJPW, AJPW, WWE, NWA, WCW, etc... Wrestlers for the most part are not strikers. They don't need high strike stats. When they have a high damage strike, it's because it's a finisher. Same for submissions. Set them to 1 and let them use them early on to slowly chip away. Flair and Steamboat will strong chop each other 7000 times in a 40 minute match, and they never do anything to progress the match other than do chip damage. It's the actual big wrestling moves that damage them and progress the match. Dusty will do 75 elbows to the head in quick succession before the clock hits 2 minutes. :) Sabu spends the match trying to do sneaky takedowns and the camel clutch to chip away at people. He doesn't actually damage people until the weapons come out, or he's diving (often also with a weapon). So what I do is use my directionless button, and the side + button to give my wrestlers repeatable strike moves. The up and down buttons are for the bigger wrestling moves. The side move doesn't have to be a strike, but it can't be a low stat submission move, a headlock, or a position change. Anything that can be repeated over and over to wear the opponent down. Same in the corners. Down is lower move, not done often, side is a strike or something, repeated VERY often, and up is the big lift high spot. When those big moves with the worthwhile stats do come out, they mean something, and they progress the match further. Use priority slots to give the wrestlers some personality. Link moves into taunts, and link those taunts into other taunts (at a lower percentage). I wrote about this a lot on the old board. Did they cheat and get an illegal move in? Have them shrug, or point and laugh or anything like that. It buys time, and makes the match more interesting to the viewer. Use 'catch a breather' taunts at a high percentage when the opponent is down. Like stare downs, or 'get up'. Let your heels be heels. I have one edit who fancies herself a queen. She uses the face slap, chained to a wave taunt to show off her slapping hand, then chains into a point to the ground with a 'bow down'. Use the MMA clutches with a 95% chance to just do a position change on all your technical wrestlers. They will reverse and jockey for position until someone finally hits a wrestling move to get out of it. Avoid the kicks to the head and etc obviously. |
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