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Post by LankyLefty17 on Sept 6, 2018 0:06:36 GMT
Okay so my first test with 212/212 Okada Omega went very, very well. 100% match evaluation, after 27:42 which Okada won with a German Suplex Hold (I still have that at 5% for L Damage but am debating taking it out to avoid finishes with it). I would really like clarity on a few things tho. 1.) Is match length going to be affected by having them at 212 instead of 252? I removed points equally across offense and defense. Or is match length only really affected by the difference between the offense and defense parameters? 2.) If the guide I posted isn't really to standard anymore, what is? I do not know what most edits on FPWNet are at now and would like to have compatibility if it is possible and in no way going to affect my sims. If 250 is too high for Okada/Omega (who will be my highest rated edits), what standard should I be going by that is in line with what the community is thinking? 1) More the second than the first. It's more the relationship of offensive to defensive parameters (keeping in mind that skills, move sets, and logic also play a role)
2) I'd check out the guide section on the forums- specifically the basic editing tips and tricks topic, there is a lot of good insight into how stuff works and how to set up different types of edits to do what you want.
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Post by dnmt on Sept 6, 2018 0:09:33 GMT
Okay so my first test with 212/212 Okada Omega went very, very well. 100% match evaluation, after 27:42 which Okada won with a German Suplex Hold (I still have that at 5% for L Damage but am debating taking it out to avoid finishes with it). I would really like clarity on a few things tho. 1.) Is match length going to be affected by having them at 212 instead of 252? I removed points equally across offense and defense. Or is match length only really affected by the difference between the offense and defense parameters? 2.) If the guide I posted isn't really to standard anymore, what is? I do not know what most edits on FPWNet are at now and would like to have compatibility if it is possible and in no way going to affect my sims. If 250 is too high for Okada/Omega (who will be my highest rated edits), what standard should I be going by that is in line with what the community is thinking? 1) More the second than the first. It's more the relationship of offensive to defensive parameters (keeping in mind that skills, move sets, and logic also play a role)
2) I'd check out the guide section on the forums- specifically the basic editing tips and tricks topic, there is a lot of good insight into how stuff works and how to set up different types of edits to do what you want.
I've read every guide in there lol. I just want to simply know if people think 250 is too high for Okada and Omega and 160-180 are too high for KUSHIDA and Desperado, what standard can I go by to figure out what isn't too high? Moreover, second match with my 212 versions was prob my best ever, 100% 30:34 that ended in a OWA after Omega kicked out of a Rainmaker. So I am totally willing to drop down my points if it won't harm my match quality, I just want to know a good standard. I am actually downloading some of LordWorm's edits now to see what he has them at overall. |
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Post by Severla on Sept 6, 2018 0:13:40 GMT
Okay so my first test with 212/212 Okada Omega went very, very well. 100% match evaluation, after 27:42 which Okada won with a German Suplex Hold (I still have that at 5% for L Damage but am debating taking it out to avoid finishes with it). I would really like clarity on a few things tho. 1.) Is match length going to be affected by having them at 212 instead of 252? I removed points equally across offense and defense. Or is match length only really affected by the difference between the offense and defense parameters? 2.) If the guide I posted isn't really to standard anymore, what is? I do not know what most edits on FPWNet are at now and would like to have compatibility if it is possible and in no way going to affect my sims. If 250 is too high for Okada/Omega (who will be my highest rated edits), what standard should I be going by that is in line with what the community is thinking? 1) No, two 1-1 Params Edits would put on the exact same match as two 10-10 Params Edits. Damage is affected by the difference by their params, hence why we say 'lower offense and up defense for easy longer matches.' 2) The guide is still good, but general consensus just says '250 is high, like legend/god tier' status. Obv Spike made Okada and Kenny god-mode, boss-tier edits because they were the kings of 2017/early 2018. Remember they both have level 3 skills (Kenny has Do or Die, and Okada has Reborn. Okada is the ONLY WRESTLER EVER IN FIPRO HISTORY WITH REBORN. No, really, he is.) which bulk them up by 35 extra points. Even Tanahashi only has a Tier 2 skill and has lower skills to drop him by ~30 under those two. If we had a FiPro during God-Tier Tana's reign, he'd have likely been really high as well, same with Nakamura (who was 205 when he was 'super rookie'). That's the reason most people tend to drop down to 200 as a rough ceiling for 'normal main eventers.' |
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Post by dnmt on Sept 6, 2018 0:25:37 GMT
Okay so my first test with 212/212 Okada Omega went very, very well. 100% match evaluation, after 27:42 which Okada won with a German Suplex Hold (I still have that at 5% for L Damage but am debating taking it out to avoid finishes with it). I would really like clarity on a few things tho. 1.) Is match length going to be affected by having them at 212 instead of 252? I removed points equally across offense and defense. Or is match length only really affected by the difference between the offense and defense parameters? 2.) If the guide I posted isn't really to standard anymore, what is? I do not know what most edits on FPWNet are at now and would like to have compatibility if it is possible and in no way going to affect my sims. If 250 is too high for Okada/Omega (who will be my highest rated edits), what standard should I be going by that is in line with what the community is thinking? 1) No, two 1-1 Params Edits would put on the exact same match as two 10-10 Params Edits. Damage is affected by the difference by their params, hence why we say 'lower offense and up defense for easy longer matches.' 2) The guide is still good, but general consensus just says '250 is high, like legend/god tier' status. Obv Spike made Okada and Kenny god-mode, boss-tier edits because they were the kings of 2017/early 2018. Remember they both have level 3 skills (Kenny has Do or Die, and Okada has Reborn. Okada is the ONLY WRESTLER EVER IN FIPRO HISTORY WITH REBORN. No, really, he is.) which bulk them up by 35 extra points. Even Tanahashi only has a Tier 2 skill and has lower skills to drop him by ~30 under those two. If we had a FiPro during God-Tier Tana's reign, he'd have likely been really high as well, same with Nakamura (who was 205 when he was 'super rookie'). That's the reason most people tend to drop down to 200 as a rough ceiling for 'normal main eventers.' Okay so now I am truly confused. I was basically being told I was crazy for having those edits at 250 and that no one would download them. I looked at LordWorm's stuff and he has the following: Bret Hart: 216 Daniel Bryan: 206 Shinsuke Nakamura: 203 Jushin Liger: 196 AJ Styles: 229 Pentagon Jr.: 196 Chris Jericho: 222 So is it really that crazy for me to have Okada and Omega at 252, keep guys like Tanahashi, Naito and Suzuki where they are at (226, 224 and 207 respectively) while bumping someone like KUSHIDA (arguably one of the best juniors of all time) to 180? I'm not saying I am going to have the top 10 guys in NJPW at 250 and have ZSJ right at 230. I am just saying Okada is arguably the best wrestler of all time and him being at 250 isn't crazy if AJ is at 229. |
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Post by Severla on Sept 6, 2018 0:34:52 GMT
Okay so now I am truly confused. I was basically being told I was crazy for having those edits at 250 and that no one would download them. So is it really that crazy for me to have Okada and Omega at 252, keep guys like Tanahashi, Naito and Suzuki where they are at (226, 224 and 207 respectively) while bumping someone like KUSHIDA (arguably one of the best juniors of all time) to 180? I'm not saying I am going to have the top 10 guys in NJPW at 250 and have ZSJ right at 230. I am just saying Okada is arguably the best wrestler of all time and him being at 250 isn't crazy if AJ is at 229. I wont say people didnt probably tell you that, but the jist of what some of us (myself, Maik) are doing is just pointing out that those shouldnt be the measuring sticks for the rest of your roster, and that they could likely be brought down to what Worm has and still be complete Main Event-scene beasts. The debate towards Cycklops has basically been that ("you dont have to be 250 points to do a 40m match"). There's a reason I kept noting to not let the Discord banter dissuade your goals yesterday, and that we're still willing to help where we can. We DO want to embrace new comers, I promise. |
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Post by dnmt on Sept 6, 2018 0:43:58 GMT
Fair. I could have been misinterpreted as saying "I want a fair Ospreay vs. Okada match" as meaning I need my Ospreay edit to be 240 overall, which I understand is crazy.
I am keeping Okada at 250, might arguably lower Omega as Okada's resume is still way more impressive to 240 or so, and keep everyone else roughly where they are other than some outliers that seem weird to me. The true "baseline" should be the Tana/Naito duo if top-tier main eventers being 220, and working down from there with guys like Elgin being significantly lower. ZSJ is literally at 138 which seems crazy low. I know that points don't equal success and a lot of other things go into it, but I do want to make sure those matches are competitive.
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Post by Severla on Sept 6, 2018 0:49:59 GMT
Yeah my comment when you posted the guide was 'that thing should really be updated to '175-215 as main event, 216-250 is legend.'
Not counting duplicates, there are only 15 or so (out of 1000) people who have over 250 in FiPro, ~25 counting duplicates (like 3 or 4 Inokis).
2 of those are BEARS (lmao), and 2 are fictional Edits that are supposed to be the sons of legends (ones a Gracie).
Kenny and Okada being in that list is some sheer poster-child/boss-tier stuff, even if they ARE that good.
Everyone else is just different bases. ZSJ doesnt need a ton because he's semi-mid carder AND he has Sub-Crit with a heavy Sub-focus (meaning he WILL beat you if time goes on, he doesnt need to pin).
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Post by ninjabrute on Sept 6, 2018 1:01:12 GMT
I think you may be putting too much emphasis on the number itself in this discussion. The specific overall points number is not a rating. So many variables and so many places where the number total comes from means that a 240 edit isn't gonna just slightly lose every time he faces a 260 edit. A 300 point edit built like shit will lose 100% of the time to an edit that has 80 points and works like a machine.
If you're worried about compatibility then you need to do some research and just look at other peoples edits more closely, and then you can use that little number as a guide if that works for you, just don't expect broad compatibility based solely on the fact that there are so many edit making philosophies (good and bad).
This is why I don't really use RL edits anymore at all. OCs are just more fun.
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Post by view619 on Sept 6, 2018 1:02:46 GMT
Also, keep in mind that when you balance your parameters around the moves that an edit will actually use/defend against you'll naturally end up with lower overall point spreads as certain parameters (Entertainment, MMA) will never be used. Giving an edit high Entertainment/MMA for flavor, when they'll never face an edit with those abilities or use those moves is just unnecessary point bloat; it's better to drop those stats to one and focus on the stats that actually matter to your edit & roster.
With this approach, you can sort edits by their point totals and it will actually reflect their match strength.
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Post by dnmt on Sept 6, 2018 1:15:19 GMT
Yeah my comment when you posted the guide was 'that thing should really be updated to '175-215 as main event, 216-250 is legend.' Not counting duplicates, there are only 15 or so (out of 1000) people who have over 150 in FiPro, ~25 counting duplicates (like 3 or 4 Inokis). 2 of those are BEARS (lmao), and 2 are fictional Edits that are supposed to be the sons of legends (ones a Gracie). Kenny and Okada being in that list is some sheer poster-child/boss-tier stuff, even if they ARE that good. Everyone else is just different bases. ZSJ doesnt need a ton because he's semi-mid carder AND he has Sub-Crit with a heavy Sub-focus (meaning he WILL beat you if time goes on, he doesnt need to pin). Definitely. I don't use criticals so I will adjust ZSJ a bit, considering he submitted everyone in NJPW this year lol. I certainly do see Okada and Omega at 250+ being a bit over the top, so am reigning that in like I said. And do you mean 15 edits over 150 or over 250? |
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Post by Severla on Sept 6, 2018 1:38:27 GMT
And do you mean 15 edits over 150 or over 250? A typo. Clearly a billion people are over 150 lmao. |
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Post by djkm77 on Sept 6, 2018 3:00:31 GMT
1) No, two 1-1 Params Edits would put on the exact same match as two 10-10 Params Edits. Damage is affected by the difference by their params, hence why we say 'lower offense and up defense for easy longer matches.' 2) The guide is still good, but general consensus just says '250 is high, like legend/god tier' status. Obv Spike made Okada and Kenny god-mode, boss-tier edits because they were the kings of 2017/early 2018. Remember they both have level 3 skills (Kenny has Do or Die, and Okada has Reborn. Okada is the ONLY WRESTLER EVER IN FIPRO HISTORY WITH REBORN. No, really, he is.) which bulk them up by 35 extra points. Even Tanahashi only has a Tier 2 skill and has lower skills to drop him by ~30 under those two. If we had a FiPro during God-Tier Tana's reign, he'd have likely been really high as well, same with Nakamura (who was 205 when he was 'super rookie'). That's the reason most people tend to drop down to 200 as a rough ceiling for 'normal main eventers.' Okay so now I am truly confused. I was basically being told I was crazy for having those edits at 250 and that no one would download them. I looked at LordWorm's stuff and he has the following: Bret Hart: 216 Daniel Bryan: 206 Shinsuke Nakamura: 203 Jushin Liger: 196 AJ Styles: 229 Pentagon Jr.: 196 Chris Jericho: 222 So is it really that crazy for me to have Okada and Omega at 252, keep guys like Tanahashi, Naito and Suzuki where they are at (226, 224 and 207 respectively) while bumping someone like KUSHIDA (arguably one of the best juniors of all time) to 180? .Here is Bill Woods Guide, give it a read. It's a great start to understanding the game and building edits. Don't worry about point totals as much as building the edit with proper logic. You can easily build wrestlers with 140 points that can destroy edits with 220 points. www.caws.ws/firepro/files/fpr_complete_guide.pdf |
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Post by sofia on Sept 6, 2018 3:18:14 GMT
KUSHIDA might be a true great of junior heavyweight wrestling ... But he's also not someone with credible wins over the upper end of the heavyweight division. His 140-ish point total reflects the fact that, unlike guys like Ibushi, Naito, and Omega, he has not crossed over into the heavyweight division and, at this point, probably never will. He's on the upper end of the division in 2018, but it's also a division that has become somewhat more segregated from the heavyweight division, even as guys cross over earlier and at weights closer and closer to the heavy/junior heavy borderline.
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Post by Wonderland on Sept 6, 2018 4:46:58 GMT
What's with the emphasis on points totals? Especially if it doesn't matter to you where they place in terms of "community standards", what does it matter what number is next to what edit? Just make the edits do what you want and take as many points as you need to do it.
More abstract points doesn't equal either longer or shorter matches. It's the interrelation of offensive and defensive parameters, logic, moveset (different moves do different damage, etc.), and ref that determines how a match goes. You can probably tune two 100 point edits go 30 minutes and two 300 point edits that go 15.
Sounds like you have yours doing what you want, long matches getting high ratings. Mission accomplished.
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Post by DakkoN on Sept 6, 2018 4:48:29 GMT
This probably belongs in a basic tips and tricks thread, but it's a direct response to what was mentioned earlier in this thread about reasons for super inflated attributes is to keep higher tier wrestlers from losing to lower tier.
Instead of over inflating the parameters, an easy way to separate tier wrestlers is by giving better wrestlers more ways to finish a match. A main eventer for example, may have his primary finisher, a secondary finisher, and then 2 or 3 different ways to link into his finishers if priorities support the situations. A low card guy though, would only have his front grapple finisher or whatever. This was something I really struggled with when it came to making guys feel dominant who usually only win matches with one move. This doesn't mean give them random shit like 8% front grapple small packages (seriously, that's almost double the percentage that I use on a primary finisher...), 5% on a random striking rollup pin, and random ground pins. It means logically using priorities to have multiple ways to hit a ground finisher, or using other situations like corner grapple to give them another finisher position. You can do it in a way that makes sense and can separate tiers of wrestlers by how many finish situations they have. A wrestler with only 1 way to end a match would have a much less chance of winning against a wrestler that has 4 ways to hit variations of the same move. Of course, this mentality goes against extending the length of matches, but I'd rather have a match that consistently goes 17-22 minutes with the better wrestler winning 9 out of 10, than a boring match that drags on for 45 minutes and feels like it's never going to end because you're waiting for one single dice roll to get a pin.
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