Soak's Spot Construction
Jul 19, 2018 11:10:13 GMT
Tex "Chainsaw" Ferguson, OrochiGeese, and 14 more like this
Post by soak314 on Jul 19, 2018 11:10:13 GMT
This thread will be a series of logic posts detailing what goes into specific kinds of spots and finishes. These guides assume you have a basic grasp of CPU logic, and delve a bit deeper into getting you more control over your edit.
We'll first be tackling the subject of:
Building for subs: What's the point?
Sub finishes in sims are something most people will have trouble with. The basic setup for them, like most everything else in firepro, is very un-intuitive. Simply giving a submission hold the F, setting it to happen late, and cranking up the parameters governing it won't cut it most of the time: your edit's probably still going to need multiple applications of the move to get that tapout finish.
An edit built properly for the sub finish will take less applications of the submission hold to get a tap. A sub that can finish on 1-3 applications will generally be far more believable as a finisher than one that takes 3-5.
Cons
Example Edit: Kai Lo
We'll first be tackling the subject of:
Building for subs: What's the point?
Sub finishes in sims are something most people will have trouble with. The basic setup for them, like most everything else in firepro, is very un-intuitive. Simply giving a submission hold the F, setting it to happen late, and cranking up the parameters governing it won't cut it most of the time: your edit's probably still going to need multiple applications of the move to get that tapout finish.
An edit built properly for the sub finish will take less applications of the submission hold to get a tap. A sub that can finish on 1-3 applications will generally be far more believable as a finisher than one that takes 3-5.
So how do I do this?
Damage Spirit.
The single, most important thing for a submission finish edit to do, regardless of the variation to the approach, is to reduce the opponent's spirit to zero (or close to zero), then have the sub happen at that point (or close to that point).
There's typically two ways to go about this:
There's typically two ways to go about this:
Method A: target a body part throughout the match.
This has been the longer standing approach, and involves building a moveset that picks a body part (arms, legs, neck) and focuses on getting the part's HP down to zero by late match. This is because, once the part's HP is nuked, all part damage that it would have taken will go straight to the edit's spirit, effectively doubling spirit damage dealt by appropriate subs in a lot of cases.
Pros:
Cons:
Method B: the direct Spirit Nuke
This entails building an edit to damage spirit at an equal or greater rate to their damage to HP. Much like part-working, much of your edit's moveset will work to this end. The approach requires the use of moves that do more spirit damage than health damage, either in consistent frequency, or in large spikes throughout the match.
Pros:
- Very good visuals, especially on arm workers whose victims will typically end up with their arms visibly down at the end stage of a match.
- Fairly simple to pull off: pick lots of moves that target the body part, put a finishing sub on late.
- Converted parts-to-spirit damage in addition to the damage bonus from the F move and/or the Finisher skill can make a finish very potent.
- Conducive to early and mid match submission use, as heavy submission use can do considerable damage to relevant parts.
Cons:
- Can limit your moveset choices, or necessitate use of moves in certain damage phases you wouldn't necessarily want there.
- Heavily affected by parts defenses. A disadvantaged parts-worker might need to use more subs before a finish. This isn't entirely a con, however, as it can easily let you give your edit hard counters among your roster.
- Generally, not the best choice if you're building to a one hit tap.
Example Edit: Carl Zilla
Method B: the direct Spirit Nuke
This entails building an edit to damage spirit at an equal or greater rate to their damage to HP. Much like part-working, much of your edit's moveset will work to this end. The approach requires the use of moves that do more spirit damage than health damage, either in consistent frequency, or in large spikes throughout the match.
A quick guide for moves that work great for spirit nuke: rough moves, flash pins, or MMA + MMA transitions. Certain lucha holds and ranas are also good for this. These are moves that generally have high spirit damage. Sometimes they are *pure* spirit damage, as is the case for flash pins and MMA transitions. Feel free to go ham with the relevant parameters governing these moves to begin with: it's much easier to tone down a high damage edit than it is to get one to a potent state.
Use Carlzilla's move editor or the gdocs spreadsheet here if you want a more detailed look at what moves do what spirit damage.
Use Carlzilla's move editor or the gdocs spreadsheet here if you want a more detailed look at what moves do what spirit damage.
Pros
- Consistent at getting even one shot sub finishes if done properly.
- Not as visually dominant as parts-work for edits that don't want the parts-work look.
- Less moves need to be done for the ideal tapout situation to be reached.
- Can also be used to setup one hit pinning finishes.
Cons
- Requires a very rigid logic spread. Midmatch pins and subs need to be completely avoided for potent nukers, as they can finish the match early.
- Can be difficult to get into a consistent state and needs a considerable amount of test sims to get right.
- Like parts-work, nuking can also limit moveset, and force use of certain moves you wouldn't necessarily want on the edit.
- Severely limits the nearfalls your edit's opponents can survive. Going full spirit nuke will mean that your edit's logic will dictate the outcome of a match once they successfully get both health and spirit to large. Work under the assumption that when a spirit nuker hits a pinning move, it will end the match then and there.
Example Edit: Kai Lo
Do I have to pick between the two approaches?
Nope, you can use them both at the same time at varying levels of intensity. Using both is great for working to a submission in standing grapple (the trickiest kind of sub to finish on), or a sub that generally does weaker damage. Refer to Pagliacci for an example of the mixed approach.
Is there a best kind of submission move to finish on?
Definitely. MMA subs and certain iconic subs like the Mandible Claw do a ton of spirit damage. The bigger the damage, the less pre-finish work the edit has to do to get the tap. But even with moves that are practically restholds, it's still very possible to get legitimate looking subs given a potent enough nuke.
Is there a best kind of special skill to use for submission edits?
Finisher or Stardom or Superstar (Finisher + Stardom) are very good skills for any edit that wants to make their finishing spots more potent. Stardom will only come into play if you have a setup that gets your edit's sub in immediately after a taunt, though, so take that into consideration.
Are there any other applications of the parts-work/nuke builds?
Spirit nuking is great for edits that need to finish on as little uses of any finisher. So if you wanna get a strong-looking finish, it's a great approach to to take. Parts-work can also work to this end, especially on body/head targeting builds, and can look really good if you manage to get the roll-around sell on a big move right before your edits hits a winning pin.
Additional reading:
My twitter thread on Kai Lo's Gator Roll
Nope, you can use them both at the same time at varying levels of intensity. Using both is great for working to a submission in standing grapple (the trickiest kind of sub to finish on), or a sub that generally does weaker damage. Refer to Pagliacci for an example of the mixed approach.
Is there a best kind of submission move to finish on?
Definitely. MMA subs and certain iconic subs like the Mandible Claw do a ton of spirit damage. The bigger the damage, the less pre-finish work the edit has to do to get the tap. But even with moves that are practically restholds, it's still very possible to get legitimate looking subs given a potent enough nuke.
Is there a best kind of special skill to use for submission edits?
Finisher or Stardom or Superstar (Finisher + Stardom) are very good skills for any edit that wants to make their finishing spots more potent. Stardom will only come into play if you have a setup that gets your edit's sub in immediately after a taunt, though, so take that into consideration.
Are there any other applications of the parts-work/nuke builds?
Spirit nuking is great for edits that need to finish on as little uses of any finisher. So if you wanna get a strong-looking finish, it's a great approach to to take. Parts-work can also work to this end, especially on body/head targeting builds, and can look really good if you manage to get the roll-around sell on a big move right before your edits hits a winning pin.
Additional reading:
My twitter thread on Kai Lo's Gator Roll
