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Post by OrochiGeese on Jul 21, 2018 7:13:29 GMT
I love this thread so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  It is so informative and I love discussing this type of strategy. You really understand the way the engine (especially submissions) can be used for match psychology. I generally prefer Method A for most edits due to years of habit combined with a preference for the visuals of limb-breaking and of using wear-down holds that target the body parts my finishers target. However, I would like to incorporate Method B a little more than I have in the past. Are there any specific moves that you use consistently (besides MMA transitions) to really drain spirit in one shot? That way I could continue to mainly use Method A but have a few moves specifically for spirit nuking to help balance things out a little. I already have taken your advice in cutting out or reducing early match submissions for most edits. It definitely helped Tetsu Gushiken a lot. He still some early usage of submissions but it's been cut drastically and he's doing much better at advancing his opponents through their damage stages. 100% agree. The "points as means to an end" approach is one that I have favored for years now. I can't say I know what I'm doing though  |
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Post by El Marsh on Jul 21, 2018 14:39:10 GMT
Sure, Gooseman, sure....;)
Seriously though, this thread is great and that was some really good information to lead off with!
I wasn't entirely sure if working a body part actually made a difference for causing submissions. I just figured it's what RL wrestlers do so I've mimicked it in my own fictional edits.
That said, I do have a question about the spirit nuke and hybrid nuke/targeting styles. I have a edit that's supposed to be an Judo/Jujitsu influenced submission machine with lots of MMA kicks martial arts chops and palm strikes thrown in. Most of her submissions (including her designated finisher) are chokes, with a couple of armbars, and exactly one leglock (as well as the rolling camel clutch, which is never meant to finish and only there because it looks so cool lol). Getting submissions with her is....challenging. Her two primary "finishing" submissions are a front grapple chokehold and an MMA position chokehold. Should I perhaps focus more on substituting more moves that attack the head to make her more efficient at forcing taps with these moves?
Also, in regard to the nuke tactic, does it matter whether the Rough and or MMA parameter is the primary or secondary? I ask because most of her strikes are straight up punch/punch and kick/kick fare but I know there are strikes that mix and match those with rough and MMA, usually in the secondary. Rough/rough and MMA/MMA moves would presumably be more efficient at the "nuke" but are hybrid category moves still effective?
Sincerest apologies if this isn't the place to ask those questions.
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Post by soak314 on Jul 22, 2018 5:24:58 GMT
However, I would like to incorporate Method B a little more than I have in the past. Are there any specific moves that you use consistently (besides MMA transitions) to really drain spirit in one shot? That way I could continue to mainly use Method A but have a few moves specifically for spirit nuking to help balance things out a little. If you're fine with flash pins as a visual, pepper the moveset with flash pins in the early and med phases. A few of those can go a long way. For edits done in this style, refer to Wondy's Lucha La Barba or my Snickers MAX (his new logic im just about to put up today). If you're not okay with flash pins, you may have to bring up the move editor/gdocs list and refer to what moves do spirit damage at a good ratio with health damage and use those to pad out specific match phases. Spoilers: heel moves are great at this (eye poke, low blows, etc). An edit with a lot of heel moves spread across the match + high params on those moves will zero out that bar in no time. Refer to: Arutica's El Cheato or my Pagliacci and Roy De Ville for this specific style of nuke. Dawn's got a couple of very potent nukers, but their names escape me at the moment. Feel free to plug em, if you see this, Dawn. I haven't bothered listing the spirit nuking moves themselves cuz that's something for the move editor/gdocs list to do, and do better.
That said, I do have a question about the spirit nuke and hybrid nuke/targeting styles. I have a edit that's supposed to be an Judo/Jujitsu influenced submission machine with lots of MMA kicks martial arts chops and palm strikes thrown in. Most of her submissions (including her designated finisher) are chokes, with a couple of armbars, and exactly one leglock (as well as the rolling camel clutch, which is never meant to finish and only there because it looks so cool lol). Getting submissions with her is....challenging. Her two primary "finishing" submissions are a front grapple chokehold and an MMA position chokehold. Should I perhaps focus more on substituting more moves that attack the head to make her more efficient at forcing taps with these moves? Also, in regard to the nuke tactic, does it matter whether the Rough and or MMA parameter is the primary or secondary? I ask because most of her strikes are straight up punch/punch and kick/kick fare but I know there are strikes that mix and match those with rough and MMA, usually in the secondary. Rough/rough and MMA/MMA moves would presumably be more efficient at the "nuke" but are hybrid category moves still effective? Sincerest apologies if this isn't the place to ask those questions. Questions are totally fine, since the main posts are reserved up top and can be revised at any time. For your edit, this sounds like a case of the whole-match sub work being maybe a bit too spread out. If she has subs early, and no real spirit nuke to accompany them, you'll find the HP damage outpacing the spirit damage, which means starting off the large/near death phases with a ton of spirit left to chew through. Consider having her start the subs from med onwards. In sml, maybe have her go for some light ground n pound with a lot of transition work (pin down, leg trips off grapple, takedown tackle off strike/counter whip. Using the floatovers to and from back to mount can really help here too. Also they look cool). This will give you a headstart on the nuke, and once med rolls around you'll be getting enough cranks in for the escape boost to not beat the crank damage. This should all translate to less subs to finish at large/ND. Also, for hybrid move question: short answer, yes hybrid moves with high base spirit damage values will still be effective for the nuke. Long answer: what I personally do for sub edits is crank up Joint/Str/Tech/Rough/MMA to 10, and see how the moveset works given that 100% maxed out damage spread. Then, I turn on the lifebars. Not necessary, but it expedites the process, and lets you get a better estimate of how hard certain moves will affect the match. From there, I look at what moves happen most, which moves deal the most damage (if you have midmatch mma, mma will probably need to be set to 1, spoilers for my MMA guide post), and which moves need the high params to even be worth having there. More often than not you'll be bumping down params after a 100% damage test, but sometimes you'll find the 10's need to be there for the edit to work as intended. It'll all depend on the moveset, and the more moves you rely on to both pace and finish, the trickier this step will tend to get. Some hybrid moves will be just fine with one stat high and the other low. You may want that on some things (filler strikes), not on others (a potential finish sub). Probably not a suuuper on the head answer there, but params and their effect on the moveset is the hardest thing to call off the edit creation screen. You need to get the sims in to see what works and what doesn't. |
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Post by El Marsh on Jul 22, 2018 14:08:34 GMT
Sweet!
Thank you for the explanation and advice. I'm guessing that the HP > Spirit thing is precisely what my problem is. I'll see what works for remedying that. If only the game were in front of me right now! Lol
I can't wait to try the above solutions!
:D
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Post by OrochiGeese on Jul 24, 2018 4:29:44 GMT
If you're fine with flash pins as a visual, pepper the moveset with flash pins in the early and med phases. A few of those can go a long way. For edits done in this style, refer to Wondy's Lucha La Barba or my Snickers MAX (his new logic im just about to put up today). If you're not okay with flash pins, you may have to bring up the move editor/gdocs list and refer to what moves do spirit damage at a good ratio with health damage and use those to pad out specific match phases. Spoilers: heel moves are great at this (eye poke, low blows, etc). An edit with a lot of heel moves spread across the match + high params on those moves will zero out that bar in no time. Refer to: Arutica's El Cheato or my Pagliacci and Roy De Ville for this specific style of nuke. Dawn's got a couple of very potent nukers, but their names escape me at the moment. Feel free to plug em, if you see this, Dawn. I haven't bothered listing the spirit nuking moves themselves cuz that's something for the move editor/gdocs list to do, and do better. I really like your suggestion of increasing my usage of flash pins. That would work nicely for a lot of the edits I have who also do technical limb work leading up to submissions. For purposes of variety, I was recently thinking that it may lead to better matches to have a few more flash pins around the "large damage" section of the match than I already have just so that the first pin attempt of the match is a 1 or a 2 rather than a 2.9. Sounds like that would work well in conjunction with the spirit nuking strategy that you suggest. I'm very familiar with Lucha La Barba and am getting increasingly familiar with Snickers MAX :) Heel moves are also a great suggestion. I can definitely understand why they drain the spirit meter. Seems like a good strategy is to use flash pins for faces and heel moves for heels with some balance between those approaches. I'll definitely spend more time with the move editor, which is something I really should have been doing for the last year. I used to use the FPR move list all of the time though not enough for spirit damage consideration. Excellent suggestions! Thanks again!! :) |
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Post by Ramon on Aug 15, 2018 10:58:57 GMT
This is great! Can't wait for the rest of the guides. :D
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Post by psychodriver91 on Aug 15, 2018 23:15:19 GMT
Same here, this is awesome and I can't wait to see the next guide!
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Post by brodatype on Feb 4, 2019 9:01:26 GMT
Thank you guys for this post. I think I've gone through it three or four times now. Got my bret hart to a cool place now. Saw someone else with a mma on down into sharp shooter. Thought it was just a great way to give a wrestler that should have a larger moveset more offense. Didn't realize it can help with the spirit. But makes me realize how you can see its setup for the mma matches so that submissions can happen relatively quickly.
Just love this game. I hope the ps4 version will continue to get better.
Cheers,
Brodatype
Psn brixwell
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Post by Love Wilcox on Feb 7, 2019 9:56:46 GMT
I just wanted to highlight something Soak mentioned earlier:
"If she has subs early, and no real spirit nuke to accompany them, you'll find the HP damage outpacing the spirit damage, which means starting off the large/near death phases with a ton of spirit left to chew through."
I might be pointing out the obvious here but the application of high frequency / low damage subs during early parts of the match can be used to increase match length and get a bunch of exciting 2.9 kickouts late into a match. It's a great way to achieve those epic 20+ minute NJPW style main events without having to resort to just cranking an edits defense params through the roof or setting Finisher logic % absurdly low. |
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Post by soak314 on Feb 11, 2019 1:49:21 GMT
I just wanted to highlight something Soak mentioned earlier:
"If she has subs early, and no real spirit nuke to accompany them, you'll find the HP damage outpacing the spirit damage, which means starting off the large/near death phases with a ton of spirit left to chew through."
I might be pointing out the obvious here but the application of high frequency / low damage subs during early parts of the match can be used to increase match length and get a bunch of exciting 2.9 kickouts late into a match. It's a great way to achieve those epic 20+ minute NJPW style main events without having to resort to just cranking an edits defense params through the roof or setting Finisher logic % absurdly low. Yep. That's an approach I've been calling the Nearfall Farm, and is how most firepro edits of the past have been built since it's far easier to make an edit that just blasts through an HP bar. |
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Post by Ramon on Feb 18, 2019 14:48:56 GMT
soak314 Will you be updating the other parts of the guide soon? Would really love to learn more indepth about good MMA logic. :)
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Post by brodatype on Jul 13, 2019 16:58:24 GMT
Hey Soak. Just curious, is there a reference of what all the attributes are on that move sheet?
I assume its
Hit point
Spirt Points
Breath Points
What are the others like suicide? Is that take away from the wrestler doing the move? Is that how that is supposed to be read?
Also, is there anywhere where you can actually know how large a meter is? Like 500 hp or sp? And how does the recovery, breathing rate and spirt in the skills affect and regenerate the meters? Just being on PS4, I'm guessing there are mods to see all this stuff on pc of which... I currently have a mac so can't play.
Thanks in advance.
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