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Post by thefallguy on Jan 11, 2019 20:46:04 GMT
Hi all, I have a question about wrestling styles.
I understand you can choose from a variety of different wrestling styles for attack and return (Orthodox, Junior, Heel etc) and this effects the affinity with which your edit can use different moves.
My problem is I tried rejuvenating one of my edits who is a junior/hero type character and selected Attack: Junior, Return: Orthodox. I then went through his move set to make sure the majority of moves were set those with affinity C or higher so he would get burned out less.
But the result seems be that he now gets destroyed by all my other edits! All of my other edits have orthodox/orthodox or power/power as their fight styles.
Looking through his move set now, this character has lots of moves with agility as the prime property of most moves. That’s because I looked for moves that had good affinity with the Junior/orthodox fight styles. So he could be dealing much less damage now?
So I guess I have a few questions.
1. Are some fight styles inherently weaker/worse than others? (Will a heel fight-style always be worse than orthodox for example?)
2. If the prime property of a move is agility, (or entertainment for that matter) is this still doing damage to an opponent?
3. Is the stance in the character appearance menu important to an edit’s behavior? Or is it purely cosmetic? (I hate the Lucha stance for example so if I set that to technical, would it matter?)
The reason for these questions is that I would like to make varied edits in a league who not only look different but also have distinct styles.
I’d appreciate any replies, this forum is a great community and I always enjoy the threads discussing this stuff in depth. This game’s appeal with the editing of characters is something I’ve not experienced before in gaming and I’m really enjoying it. It throws up a lot of surprises and interesting results.
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Post by LankyLefty17 on Jan 11, 2019 20:55:37 GMT
1) Fight styles deal with reversal rate and breathing. They do not affect damage.
2) Move damge is tied to parameters. If you want them to deal out more agility damage, turn up that offensive parameter
3) Stance is visual only, doesnt impact anything else.
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Kris
JIM MINY
www.twitch.tv/purist_chris
Posts: 79
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Post by Kris on Jan 11, 2019 20:57:28 GMT
Fight style doesn't affect parameters so will not change amount of damage caused or taken. From memory it mainly affects affinity and less significant factors like how far the wrestler can jump from the top rope, which type of counters are used and how often they will grab the ropes when Irish whipped. Fight stance is cosmetic only.
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Post by Severla on Jan 11, 2019 21:45:59 GMT
Maikeru's fight style guide is a nice starting place. There are more in-depth guides to be had if you need further, though. Here is the guide on Steam. |
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Post by OrochiGeese on Jan 12, 2019 7:37:58 GMT
My problem is I tried rejuvenating one of my edits who is a junior/hero type character and selected Attack: Junior, Return: Orthodox. I then went through his move set to make sure the majority of moves were set those with affinity C or higher so he would get burned out less. But the result seems be that he now gets destroyed by all my other edits! All of my other edits have orthodox/orthodox or power/power as their fight styles. Looking through his move set now, this character has lots of moves with agility as the prime property of most moves. That’s because I looked for moves that had good affinity with the Junior/orthodox fight styles. So he could be dealing much less damage now? Yeah, it's because of the "base damage" that each move does. What you want to do is check out Carlzilla's Move Data Guide. That guide will tell you how much base damage each move does. Each move has a different base damage value. All the parameters do is increase that damage. A move that does 100 base damage will do more than that when the 2 offensive parameters for that move are increased from a parameter of "1" to anything higher. So if you have an edit who has ALL 1's for their offensive parameters, they'll still do more damage with a powerbomb than with a knee to the leg. I think that when you changed some moves around in an attempt to get a higher affinity, you inadvertently replaced higher base damage moves with lower base damage moves. However, without having seen the matches, I'm not 100% sure of that conclusion. So my follow-up question is did you happen to notice in the new matches whether your junior/hero edit was losing more grapples than he did before? Unfortunately, grapple winning is random and there's no way to control that. Sometimes our testing can be confused when our edit isn't winning enough grapples for their changes to be clearly seen. 1. Are some fight styles inherently weaker/worse than others? (Will a heel fight-style always be worse than orthodox for example?) The fight styles themselves have different attributes, jump distances, etc. I don't personally consider any fight styles to be inferior across the board. But, indirectly, a fight style like Power is going to have the highest affinity towards moves that tend to do a higher base damage than other fight styles like junior. If you want to make an edit that has high affinity (and therefore is less likely to run out of breath) and does high base damage moves, power offensive style is probably the way to go. Whereas many technical style moves have a lower base damage. But you can still have a junior or technical be competitive if you allow them high enough parameters and make sure their opponents have lower technical defensive parameters. The key is finding that balance to make sure power wrestlers don't dominate (especially if they are larger size ones as the size of the wrestlers adds damage as well) and giving wrestlers of other style a chance to be competitive. 2. If the prime property of a move is agility, (or entertainment for that matter) is this still doing damage to an opponent? Agility is just one of the two parameters that a move can have. Every move has two parameters controlling it (sometimes it's the same parameter twice. It's not a "character value" like - "Edit A is really agile and therefore moves quicker". (wrestler movement is only decided in the "skills" menu). A move that has "agility and punch" parameters controlling it functions the same way as a move that has "technical and rough" controlling it. Same with Entertainment. They are all just parameter modifiers. If a move has that parameter and you want that move to do maximum damage, increase that parameter to 10. Also, giving a move either "special" or "finisher" status adds 1 point (if special) or 2 points (if finisher) to each of the two parameters a move uses in addition to other things those two statuses do. Some special skills will also modify/increase offensive damage like "1 hit Finisher." 3. Is the stance in the character appearance menu important to an edit’s behavior? Or is it purely cosmetic? (I hate the Lucha stance for example so if I set that to technical, would it matter?) I think it's mostly cosmetic though I do feel like the standing/walking animation of some of those styles make certain strikes easier/quicker to come out than other styles. But it won't hurt or confuse or affect your edit to give them a stance like lucha and an offensive style that is different. I’d appreciate any replies, this forum is a great community and I always enjoy the threads discussing this stuff in depth. This game’s appeal with the editing of characters is something I’ve not experienced before in gaming and I’m really enjoying it. It throws up a lot of surprises and interesting results. This sounds like a very fun time for you as you are really starting to delve deeply into the game 😎 |
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Post by thefallguy on Jan 12, 2019 10:23:34 GMT
Thank you all very much for your replies, but especially Geese. That was a really great informative read. Definitely gonna check out the move data spreadsheet, that looks like it will help a lot. This place is a gold mine!!
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Post by Professor Voodoo on Jan 12, 2019 12:43:33 GMT
There's also another element that makes the fighting styles unique as quite a few of them have a stamina recovery scale that gets better or worse depending on how much damage they've taken.
More basic wrestling oriented styles like Orthodox, Technician, Mysterious, and American are all built with "fighting spirit" in mind to some extent, so they'll gradually start great, stamina slowly gets worse, and thus increased breath consumption, up until their health hits kaput, and their stamina consumption becomes more manageable.
More dominant and shoot styles like Power, Wrestling, and Ground and start out strong, but do enough damage, and their stamina consumption off of each move (and rope running) increases, making them tire much faster, and they don't get that stamina comeback that would be granted to a more pure pro wrestling based style.
The two extremes are Panther (Tiger Mask, even with low affinity moves and low breathing stats, it's tough as nails to make them gas out completely thanks to high level stamina control) and Giant (Early 90s Andre, when he could barely move, let alone wrestle, and thus gasses hard off anything that isn't a punch or rough attack, starts out with rather poor stamina to boot, and their stamina completely tanks once moderately high damage has been inflicted. If not for Giant defense style, it'd be the worst overall style in the game)
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Post by OrochiGeese on Jan 13, 2019 8:15:51 GMT
Thank you all very much for your replies, but especially Geese. That was a really great informative read. Definitely gonna check out the move data spreadsheet, that looks like it will help a lot. This place is a gold mine!! Very glad to help out! I think your post was really good. For someone starting to delve into the depths of the engine, you were asking all of the right questions. You'll get the hang of all of this soon 💡 I've gotten into the habit of keeping that move list open whenever I make edits. It can be counter intuitive what moves do more base damage than others. And the move list allows me to compensate with parameters. My favorite edits tend to be a combination of technical and submission. The problem though is that a lot of early/build-up moves that use technical, stretch, or submission parameters take off very little damage, especially comparative to early/build-up moves that use orthodox, suplex, or power parameters. That means that a technical edit let's say "5" on all parameters using all technical moves would get obliterated by a power edit with the same parameter value using all power moves provided each edit wins like 50% of the grapples. Even though both edits are getting their moves in at an equal rate and have the same offensive parameter level, the power edit will progress quicker to their bigger moves because the base damage on their style's moves are so different from each other. If you want a technical edit and you want them to have technical moves that fit their affinity (so they don't run out of breath), you are going to have to give them higher parameters to allow their weaker moves to make them competitive against edits of other styles. There are some other ways to attempt to compensate as well (like really good usage of priorities and ukemi reversals) but parameters are one big way to allow edits of different styles to be competitive with each other. Also keep in mind that the size of edits matter too. A "Large" size edit does more damage (and absorbs less damage) against a "Medium" edit than a "Medium" edit does against another "Medium" size edit or "Large" size. Given how many Power edits tend to be comparatively bigger and Technical edits tend to be comparatively smaller, that's another inequality that you have to account for that you can with parameters. I've always viewed parameters (and all points in Fire Pro) as a means to an end. The right parameters in an edit are the ones that, to me, allow an edit to wrestle competitively against their expected opponents. So seeing a technical edit with a lot of 7's r parameters in a fed with power wrestlers that have all a lot of 5's isn't surprising to me. The balance you are looking for is in the end result (the matches) rather than in the production of it (looking under the hood). But I've been chased out of town for that view before.  LOL There's also another element that makes the fighting styles unique as quite a few of them have a stamina recovery scale that gets better or worse depending on how much damage they've taken. More basic wrestling oriented styles like Orthodox, Technician, Mysterious, and American are all built with "fighting spirit" in mind to some extent, so they'll gradually start great, stamina slowly gets worse, and thus increased breath consumption, up until their health hits kaput, and their stamina consumption becomes more manageable. More dominant and shoot styles like Power, Wrestling, and Ground and start out strong, but do enough damage, and their stamina consumption off of each move (and rope running) increases, making them tire much faster, and they don't get that stamina comeback that would be granted to a more pure pro wrestling based style. The two extremes are Panther (Tiger Mask, even with low affinity moves and low breathing stats, it's tough as nails to make them gas out completely thanks to high level stamina control) and Giant (Early 90s Andre, when he could barely move, let alone wrestle, and thus gasses hard off anything that isn't a punch or rough attack, starts out with rather poor stamina to boot, and their stamina completely tanks once moderately high damage has been inflicted. If not for Giant defense style, it'd be the worst overall style in the game) Interesting, I wasn't aware of this characteristic. You are saying that the different fighting styles consume and recover breath at variable rates (tied to the different levels of damage they take) throughout the match? How is that modified by the breathing settings in the Skills menu? Which is taken into account first? The fight style or the 3 levels of breathing (and breathing while bloody) in the skills level? |
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Post by Professor Voodoo on Jan 13, 2019 11:12:07 GMT
Not the recovery of breath, as that is tied to the breathing stat entirely. Nor am I sure which is checked first in game.
This applies entirely to consumption of stamina via moves/running.
All styles are have a stamina gradient so to speak that goes down (and sometimes up) based on damage taken and follows Small/Medium/Large/Near Death
I guess the best way I can illustrate this is with an example of 2 rather conflicting styles, and bad move affinities.
Vicious style, near death. Being Inoki strong style based, their overall stamina consumption becomes very low when their health is kaput, to simulate that strong style no sell comeback. Now let's say in this state, the Vicious style edit likes to spam chokeslams. Sure it is an E affinity move, and will drain up quite a bit of stamina, but they can use it fairly frequently in this state before they have to recharge.
Then we look at Power style, near death. Being a more "dominate the foe" style, they're not meant for heroic comebacks, and their stamina consumption gets ever worse as they take more damage. So let's say they use something like a moonsault fairly regularly. They try that shit while they're in near death, and their tank will hit near empty (or empty) in about 2-3 goes.
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LOL