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Post by fignuts on Aug 4, 2021 2:41:29 GMT
So one thing I've noticed through all my Sims is that corner moves with two stages, such as the superplex or avalanche german, rarely ever happen. They'll get them up on the turnbuckle but I'd say about 90% of the time the second grapple is countered.
While you don't want guys hitting these moves a dozen times a match, I would definitely like to see them more often than I'm getting. Especially for guys who have these moves as finishers.
So is there anything that can affect these moves such as ukemi or cpu difficulty?
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Post by OrochiGeese on Aug 4, 2021 6:02:08 GMT
I definitely share your frustration and I notice these moves get countered all the time! I've seen that "Avalanche powerbomb reversal" in so many of my matches. You'd think it would be more rare than superplex! It can really be frustrating to see a wrestler's one chance at hitting their finisher get stuffed in like every sim.
Unfortunately, there really isn't anything we can do to influence the percentage of an edit winning any grapple, let alone the two stage avalanche grapple. This is a huge source of frustration to me and has been for years.
Who wins each grapple will be entirely chosen by the list of numbers that goes through the Random Number Generator. The number that comes up will determine which edit wins the grapple. We can't affect it at all.
CPU Level: Grapple % actually is indirectly governed by CPU logic but it's equal for each CPU wrestler. It's harder for a human !P to win a grapple against a CPU on level 10 vs. level 1, but it's equal for CPU wrestler 1 vs. CPU wrestler 2. I don't think changing the CPU level would make Wrestler 1 more likely to win an Avalanche grapple than Wrestler 2.
Ukemi: Ukemi only kicks in after the initial grapple is won. That's why a wrestler with 0 ukemi (always counter, never "take" offense) could still get squashed in a match. Even if they counter every move, they still need to win a grapple of their own to really have a chance to win. The ukemi setting will have no effect on who wins the intiial grapple.
I also don't think ukemi would kick in for second stage of the 2-stage avalanche style grapple. Either the initial attacker wins the second stage of the grapple and hits their set Corner move or the initial defender wins the grapple and hits their set corner reversal move. I don't think either of those moves can be "countered" so ukemi wouldn't affect things.
I don't know if there have been any mods that allow you to customize grapple winning but I could be wrong.
I remember asking a question about grapple winning during one of those early Spike chats in 2017-2018. They said that they couldn't do anything to allow us to customize grapple winning since it's so internal to the Fire Pro system they have. I get it and understood they had to work mainly within the system for FPW. But it would just be so amazing if we were able to assign percentages to individual edits as to how likely they were to win grapples.
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Post by markrocker on Aug 28, 2021 22:50:20 GMT
I would like to offer a solution, a way to not have these moves countered as often, or at least a fun experiment. If you don't use the MMA slots for wrestlers, create a corner grapple in move craft and give it the mma back mount for the attacker and defender in the animation index. That will open up 3 move choices, and one reversal. Then create 3 corner moves as mma back mount moves. So you can have a corner stomp, brainbuster, and punch rush, for example. For the brainbuster, create it all in one single motion, without that pause that occurs when the attacker grapples the defender on the top rope.
I haven't tried it with corner moves myself, but I did use this method with the front grapple headlock as a starting point and use 3 moves from there, with one reversal, and it works perfectly.
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Post by LankyLefty17 on Aug 28, 2021 22:59:45 GMT
Im not sure I follow how this would prevent corner moves from being countered… or how you would put corner grapples in mma slots. Maybe a visual?
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Post by markrocker on Aug 29, 2021 5:19:20 GMT
First thing is to pick a move. I picked the corner throat chops as an example.  Look for the frames that leave the opponent against the corner. You can delete all the remaining frames for both attacker and defender.  Then, in the animation library pick #9 Back Mount (Attacker) from the AS column  And #10 Back Mount (Defender) from the same AS column.  What this does is that it turns this move you just crafted into a back mount MMA move, and that opens all the 3 options from the Back Mount MMA slots. You can select any 3 moves from that category. Now select 3 corner moves and open them in move craft. I picked astro scissor whip as an example. Delete some of the starting frames so it matches, animation-wise with the previous move were the attacker pushed the defender into the corner. After you finish editing the move so it follows from the push into corner positiion, change the move category to back mount position (MMA) and save it. You can select this move. You can even mix and match, as you can also have a back mount and some back mount attacks.  To clarify something I said earlier, this wont prevent these moves from being reversed, but you can create a top rope brainbuster as one move, without the pause when the opponent is sat at the top. So it goes from lifting the guy up to the top rope, to climbing and executing the brainbuster. I havent tried this with corner moves yet, but it works with grapples. |
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Post by LankyLefty17 on Aug 29, 2021 6:24:14 GMT
I kinda feel at this point youre better off just using the movelist mod, but I also dont get near enough corner reversals to justify rigging mma moves to also work in corner grapples.
That said I guess thats the beauty of move craft, people can do with it what they want
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Post by OrochiGeese on Aug 29, 2021 8:56:17 GMT
Wow, that is a really interesting strategy, Makar! 💡 Thanks for describing it to clearly and using pictures to guide us. You and I have really been on the same wavelength recently!! 😄 A few days ago I tried to create a top rope brainbuster that would bypass the "grapple" in the middle of the move. I failed miserably and became quite clear that I need to figure out the Corner Grapple section of Move Craft better. But I'm really impressed with that you did here 👏 I'm still wrapping my head around the mechanics here but want to give this a try 👍 That said I guess thats the beauty of move craft, people can do with it what they want Very well said 😎 Move Craft really allows people to approach the moves, categories, and game in different ways. It's perfect for Fire Pro! |
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Post by markrocker on Aug 29, 2021 14:48:47 GMT
I like trying out new stuff and figure out what the game will allow me to do. I use the mma slots to expand on a wrestler's moveset. Let's say you have an edit that uses an armhold finisher. If you pick several arm hold moves, you will end up with a limited moveset. You can use the mma slots to expand on his moveset. For example, start out with the arm breaker from front grapple (sml), delete the frames you don't need, and pick the mma slots from the AS column in the animation index for the attacker and defender, and save this setup move as a front grapple. Let's say you pick the mount position for both attacker and defender:  From there, edit arm attack moves in move craft as part of the mma slot you picked for the starting move. You need to make some changes for them to work properly because they need to be facing the same direction as the setup move. You now have several other arm moves that you can use, like: Front grapple (sml): arm breaker, shoulder butt (arm), elbow stamp (arm) Front grapple (med): shoulder arm breaker, jumping arm breaker, armbreaker combination Front grapple (big): roll fly cross armbreaker Back grapple (big): foothold arm hold, leg-stomp arm hold Let's say that you set your setup arm breaker as mount position (attacker) and mount position (defender) in the AS column in the animation index. The moves you pick and edit to be your follow up attacks from the arm breaker position need to be saved as mount position (mma) in the move category, so when you select the arm breaker setup in front grapple, you then select these attack in the mount position slots:  These can be used to work the arms without taking extra slots on the moveset. You can do the same with other moves, like the side body knee lift that leaves the opponent groggy for power moves, the leg pickup part of the dragon screw to set up leg attacks, the initial part of knee strikes to create a muay thai clinch, or for boxers these slots can be used to add combinations. All these have 3 attacks and 1 reversal for the defender, and that is why it's important to have the reversal match the setup move. If you use a setup move with the leg pickup part of the dragon screw, the reversal can be the leg-feed enzuigiri. The point to all of this is that instead of having this for a wrestler that uses an arm hold finisher: Front grapple: elbow butt Front grapple + up: elbow stamp (arm) Front grapple + left, right: shoulder butt (arm) Front grapple + down: arm breaker You have this: Front grapple: elbow butt Front grapple + up: bodyslam Front grapple + left, right: flying mare Front grapple + down: arm hold setup in mma slot (this gives you these options: mma (sml): elbow stamp, mma (med): shoulder arm breaker, mma (big): foothold arm hold) That wrestler now has 6 front grapple moves instead of 4, 3 of them are regular wrestling moves and 3 of them target the arm. You can do this for ground moves too, creating moves that attack the arms, or just use them to expand the moveset, like this: Front grapple: elbow butt Front grapple + up: bodyslam Front grapple + left, right: flying mare Front grapple + down: side body knee lift that leaves opponent groggy setup in mma slot (this gives you these options: mma (sml): some punch, mma (med): dropkick, mma (big): lariat attack) |
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Post by markrocker on Aug 29, 2021 15:03:02 GMT
So one thing I've noticed through all my Sims is that corner moves with two stages, such as the superplex or avalanche german, rarely ever happen. They'll get them up on the turnbuckle but I'd say about 90% of the time the second grapple is countered. While you don't want guys hitting these moves a dozen times a match, I would definitely like to see them more often than I'm getting. Especially for guys who have these moves as finishers. So is there anything that can affect these moves such as ukemi or cpu difficulty? I feel like I got carried away and hijacked your thread. My apologies, fignuts. I think that a simple solution to your issue is to create a corner superplex from the ground up. That will remove the second stage of the move and if there is a reversal it will happen before the attacker sits the defender on the top rope. |
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Post by Senator Phillips on Aug 29, 2021 15:46:23 GMT
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Post by markrocker on Aug 29, 2021 16:53:52 GMT
I want something like that, and not to just rely on the logic to decide when to throw an edit into the corner. Does that move work from a spot on the ring other than the center?
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Post by Senator Phillips on Aug 29, 2021 18:09:35 GMT
I want something like that, and not to just rely on the logic to decide when to throw an edit into the corner. Does that move work from a spot on the ring other than the center? Yes, that's the beauty of it, you could be down in the bottom "Windex" corner and it'll still force the defender to run to the corner. As long as they're in the ring, it'll send them to rest in the corner. |
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Post by markrocker on Aug 29, 2021 18:39:29 GMT
I want something like that, and not to just rely on the logic to decide when to throw an edit into the corner. Does that move work from a spot on the ring other than the center? Yes, that's the beauty of it, you could be down in the bottom "Windex" corner and it'll still force the defender to run to the corner. As long as they're in the ring, it'll send them to rest in the corner. Awesome. Gonna give it a try. |
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Post by markrocker on Aug 29, 2021 23:01:21 GMT
Is there a way to open subscribed moves in move craft?
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Post by LankyLefty17 on Aug 30, 2021 3:29:38 GMT
Nope
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