jd
JIM MINY
Posts: 53
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Post by jd on Mar 19, 2021 19:37:40 GMT
Hello all, I am dropping in once again for my yearly visit to update on my quest to use Fire Pro Wrestling to successfully pick my NCAA March Madness bracket for reasons I no longer recall, surely it is mentioned in one of the other threads I've made about it over the years. Unlike last year there is an actual tournament this year which makes this much easier! Also unlike last year I'm not writing every match up and posting lots of screenshots as I lack the amount of free time I had this time last year when things first got screwy. The downside is that the group of people I've been doing this to compete against for the most part sat this year out. In complete honesty due to... obvious things I didn't even realize there was a college basketball season this year so I can't really blame them, but if the combination of last year's tourney being canceled and this whole season being an afterthought means this friendly competition is over then I don't know that I'll be doing another one of these sims in the future. So for maybe the last time, here is the official March Madness bracket and the bracket of edits who were chosen to represent each team via to a complex mathematical formula that I assure you makes at least 63% sense. Please ignore the obvious MS Paint edits, as always FPW edits are tricky when you don't own every piece of DLC >_> Anyways, feel free to pick a wrestler to root for throughout the tournament this year (Rutgers finally made it after decades away so I'm a Rhino man) and I'll likely drop back later today or tomorrow to reveal who Fire Pro World picked to become NCAA champion for perhaps the last time... maybe. We'll see.
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Post by Senator Phillips on Mar 19, 2021 20:03:22 GMT
Oughta be a grand ol' time, got a good laugh out of the Great Antonio standing in for Cleveland State, heh
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jd
JIM MINY
Posts: 53
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Post by jd on Mar 21, 2021 2:01:48 GMT
My personal favorite selection is Kane standing in for Tennessee which I didn't even notice until I was midway through simming the whole thing.
First things first, the first day of the tournament was highlighted by only the 9th time a 15 seed has ever defeated a 2 seed. Virtually no one predicted it... except Fire Pro World. As I've stated before the computers that landed man on the moon were likely less complex than the programs that run your average Fire Pro game (I recommend not actually checking that) so it should be a simple thing to predict a simple basketball tournament.
That said aside from that one standout the first round has been pretty rough for good ol' FPW so far, we are currently in the 7.6 percentile which is... bad. The biggest hit was Georgetown getting smoked as in the most pure Cinderella run I've seen the game toss my way in ages Mikey Whipwreck somehow found a way to keep winning matches he was clearly losing, defeating Kawada (a legit 1 seed) and Cody on the way to the Final Four. It was so darn appropriate it put a huge smile on my face.
Beyond that other pre-Final 4 standouts was 1 seed Inoki and 2 seed Vader demolishing their way through their region to resume their rivalry, this time Vader once again reigning supreme. The only 100% rated match in the tourney was in the first round and of course was the Lawrence Taylor match, who followed up that insanity by getting a 91% rating out of ultimate Warrior in round 2 in a losing effort.
The Final Four ended up being Vader vs Whipwreck and Hansen vs Braun. Mikey after his unlikely run lost by pinfall in under two minutes which is something I'm not sure I've seen before in a non-critical match. This lead to Vader vs hansen in the finals representing Iowa vs Arkansas and sadly no eyes were dislodged from anyone's skull. Also Big Van Vader won, which is notable as that exact same edit won my March Madness simulation last year. That's a twelve match tournament winning streak which is quite frankly absurd. Sentator I'm not saying your vader edit is overpowered, but it is definitely a terror.
So yeah, fun times and remember you heard here first that iowa is the next national champ.
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Post by OrochiGeese on Mar 25, 2021 8:06:45 GMT
I don't follow the NCAA or Final Four* but I always enjoy this thread! 🏀
I hope it's not your last Fire Pro Final Four (Final Fire Four Pro on GBA?) but I have really appreciated all of the time you have put into posting the results and commentary!!
I'm glad Vader won again and had Hansen as the appropriate dance partner (sports calls the Final Four the "big dance" right? Did I just say "sports" says something lol 😁)
*More of an NBA fan except when like half the league is injured 😭
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jd
JIM MINY
Posts: 53
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Post by jd on Mar 30, 2021 6:57:48 GMT
I'm glad Vader won again and had Hansen as the appropriate dance partner (sports calls the Final Four the "big dance" right? Did I just say "sports" says something lol 😁) That is in fact something people say, you successfully did a sports! So I'm sure I've said this before, but while this is a ridiculous exercise there is a decent idea behind it IMO. With no real basketball knowledge (heck, even with basketball knowledge) picking a bracket like this is an exercise in weighted probabilities. If for example there are four games in the opening round where a team has a 75% chance of winning, on average one of them will lose. While that is reasonable seeming there are also a number of games where a team is judged to have a 90% chance of winning, but while that means one out of every ten of them will result in a massive upset no one will ever pick the 10% team even if they know they should at some point. Hence it basically becomes an issue of not just figuring out the rough odds, but trying to figure which unlikely choices to choose. I use what is considered the most reliable advanced statistic to see the relative strength of each team, but finding something that can represent that range while also reliably spouting out unlikely results at about the right frequency is a bit trickier. There are likely websites that let you type in pure numbers and get results like that, but that's boring. What I learned ages ago, and what I'm sure many here would agree with, is that Fire Pro has been doing just this for probably decades now. Better still at a low setting criticals are a great tool for simulating those lightning strike unforeseeable events that can dramatically changes things in an instant (ex. a star player suffering an injury). The main issue is that the only thing I can really balance based off of is edit points, which is a flawed system: logic and how frequently edits go for pins or subs make a dramatic difference in edit strength and there's no real way to represent that numerically. Still it seems close enough that it could work, and I think it generally does work. This sim gave me a final four of a 2 seed, two 3 seeds and a 12 seed which given how the tourney has unfolded in real life (a 1 and a 2 seed have made it so far, an 11 and 12 seed were a game away) reads as reasonable if light on 1 seeds. The issue is, and that is probably unsolvable, is that even if it accurately figures out the relative odds and strengths in each game it is still picking the one out of four 25% likely teams (or one out of ten 10% likely teams) at more or less random. Or to put it another way, even if the game figures out the proper likelihood of a tier three team making a deep run into the tourney it is still picking that tier three team at random. This is a long way of saying that I ran out of teams in play today, have 320 total points with no more coming in which currently puts me in the 5.8 percentile which will only go lower and lower as the tourney wraps up. This can only be viewed as a bad result even if it spit out something that appeared at least initially reasonable. If this is the last one of these I run I think I at least have gotten to the point where I've taken it as far as it can reasonably go, and as far as that is it is still subject to a very high amount of randomness that will only give me a good result once every several years if not more. But hey, I got to watch Vader powerbomb a lot of fools, bear witness to workrate god Lawrence Taylor, and got to watch Undertaker wrestle a blowup doll. If that ain't a moral victory I don't know what one is.
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jd
JIM MINY
Posts: 53
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Post by jd on Apr 1, 2021 6:48:57 GMT
One last bow to put on this as things are down to the actual Final Four teams and... well let me just break it down by region (complete with more actual wrestling content!)
-In the sim the overall top seed and strongest ranked competitor Inoki (1 seed) made it to the West region finals before losing a close match to the eventual winner and over two years proven to be absurdly dangerous Vader (2 seed). In the actual tourney the Inoki equivalent made it as far but got an easier opponent in the 6 seed USC. FPW had the #2 seed escaping this region, in real life the #1 seed did.
-In the East region it was the cinderella story of Mikey Whipwreck (12 seed) pulling off upset after upset, including taking out regional 1 seed Kawada on the way to winning the entire region and making it to the final four, where it lost in under two minutes. In real life 11 seed UCLA went on a big cinderella run, topped off by beating the regions 1 seed in Michigan to make it to the final four where they are currently a 14 point underdog and expected to be massacred by a historically great team. FPW had the #12 seed escaping the region, in real life the #11 seed did.
-In the sim of the the South region the Stan Hansen (3 seed) got an easy path to the regional finals thanks to Naito (2 seed) suffering a historic upset to the 15 seed Giant Gonzalez in the first round. They were lucky that the top seed Undertaker (1 seed) was taken out before then and got to go to the final four. In real life Arkansas (3 seed) made it to the regional final because the 2 seed Ohio State suffered a historic first round upset in the opening round to the 15 seed (in fact the lower half of that bracket was almost predicted perfectly by FPW). The top team in the region Baylor (1 seed) was not eliminated earlier and beat Arkansas to make it to the final four. FPW predicted the #3 seed to escape the region, in real life the #1 seed did but the #3 seed did reach the regional finals.
-Finally in the Midwest region the top seed Blue Demon (1 seed) went out earliest of all the top seeds, setting up a battle between Sting (2 seed) and Braun Strowman (3 seed) as the big battle to determine who'd be most likely to take the region. Sadly Sting got taken out right before it could happen, leaving Braun the clear path to the final four. In real life Illinois (1 seed) went out earliest of all the top seeds setting up a battle between Houston (2 seed) and West Virginia (3 seed) to determine the likely region winner. Unfortunately West Virginia got taken out right before that could happen, setting up Houston for a clear path to the final four. FPW predicted the #3 seed to escape the region, in real life the #2 seed did.
The bargain made by running this kind of sim is you will get more early round games wrong but will hopefully get the later less predictable ones right. That did not happen and hence this bracket's overall score is bad... but removed from score FPW actually did a pretty good job predicting how things would generally go in the tourney. In three of the four regions it was off by a single seed and the fourth was only off by two and the general shape of how things developed was all things considered relatively close. Maybe this is just me choosing to view my odd thing in the best light possible but I'd say that it was actually much more accurate than i'd have expected. Good job Fire Pro!
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Post by OrochiGeese on Apr 8, 2021 6:12:38 GMT
I'm glad Vader won again and had Hansen as the appropriate dance partner (sports calls the Final Four the "big dance" right? Did I just say "sports" says something lol 😁) That is in fact something people say, you successfully did a sports! When I get the terminology wrong, people think I'm a robot pretending to be an alien failing at being human 😁 So I'm sure I've said this before, but while this is a ridiculous exercise there is a decent idea behind it IMO. With no real basketball knowledge (heck, even with basketball knowledge) picking a bracket like this is an exercise in weighted probabilities. If for example there are four games in the opening round where a team has a 75% chance of winning, on average one of them will lose. While that is reasonable seeming there are also a number of games where a team is judged to have a 90% chance of winning, but while that means one out of every ten of them will result in a massive upset no one will ever pick the 10% team even if they know they should at some point. Hence it basically becomes an issue of not just figuring out the rough odds, but trying to figure which unlikely choices to choose. I use what is considered the most reliable advanced statistic to see the relative strength of each team, but finding something that can represent that range while also reliably spouting out unlikely results at about the right frequency is a bit trickier. There are likely websites that let you type in pure numbers and get results like that, but that's boring. What I learned ages ago, and what I'm sure many here would agree with, is that Fire Pro has been doing just this for probably decades now. Better still at a low setting criticals are a great tool for simulating those lightning strike unforeseeable events that can dramatically changes things in an instant (ex. a star player suffering an injury). The approach that you described here was really interesting, especially with the CRITICALS! I've never filled out an NCAA bracket before but I've done a ton of FP simming. And I was intrigued by the strategy that you came up with comparing the two. Selfishly, I hope this isn't the last March Madness that you do! But I definitely understand if you feel you've taken this to the logical end. Of course, maybe next year all basketball players will be robots (pretending to be aliens failing at being human) and FP logic will perfectly match up! 🤖 Here's hopin!...? 😕 But hey, I got to watch Vader powerbomb a lot of fools, bear witness to workrate god Lawrence Taylor, and got to watch Undertaker wrestle a blowup doll. If that ain't a moral victory I don't know what one is. Vince is beyond jealous that Fire Pro beat him to the punch on the Undertaker/blowup doll booking. The bargain made by running this kind of sim is you will get more early round games wrong but will hopefully get the later less predictable ones right. That did not happen and hence this bracket's overall score is bad... but removed from score FPW actually did a pretty good job predicting how things would generally go in the tourney. In three of the four regions it was off by a single seed and the fourth was only off by two and the general shape of how things developed was all things considered relatively close. Maybe this is just me choosing to view my odd thing in the best light possible but I'd say that it was actually much more accurate than i'd have expected. Good job Fire Pro! Yeah, I agree. I thought FPW did a great job here given its constraints and the rather unpredictable nature of NCAA tournament basketball. I suppose we could celebrate by cutting down the ropes from the ring? 😁
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