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Post by OrochiGeese on Dec 22, 2018 10:47:44 GMT
Yeah I ran a stream tonight with my new teams and it was a complete disaster. Non stop tagging and apron moves (Hana, Firehawk, and Dawnbr3ak3r saw it all). It only make sense in terms of human players getting stuck on the apron with a partner who never tags out. In that case, it's a great change. For simming not so much. Also, it's good at letting matches actually end. Before they'd all go to 40-60 minutes. Now all the wrestlers are tired out and it ends around 30, where it should. It makes sense for humans but they could have fixed that issue by having the "call for a tag" button when you are standing on the apron (that existed since FPR) actually work. The animation is there but doesn't do anything. If they put in that functionality, they wouldn't have to ruin tag matches for CPU simming. They even had the motion/gesture IN the game - they just had to make it do what it was supposed to do. UGH - this is driving me nuts. I can't believe they just completely changed CPU tag matches for the worse. I've had a lot of 30 minute TLD's because edits are missing opportunities to finish their sequences. They get more tired out but they leave more match finishes on the table to tag out instead. It's really frustrating. |
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Post by view619 on Dec 22, 2018 14:19:44 GMT
Yeah, a lot of those changes seem to be based on human players. Maybe you guys can tweet at Spike and remind them that the vast majority of their remaining player-base simulates the game?
Also, see if they can get the team to roll back the tag logic change? It's just weird to see Logic changes at this stage, when the workshop is already loaded up with edits.
It doesn't affect me at all, but it's still weird to see.
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Post by Zealot on Dec 22, 2018 14:26:05 GMT
Out of curiosity, has anyone tested each participant in a tag match at different percentage intervals like 0, 25, 50, 100 etc. to see how big the interval times are?
I feel like if it's below 50%, you can get more 20-25 minute tag matches which is more in my ballpark than 30+.
Either way, there are some momentum-killing times for tag matches more so than usual.
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Post by LankyLefty17 on Dec 22, 2018 16:20:34 GMT
Yeah I ran a stream tonight with my new teams and it was a complete disaster. Non stop tagging and apron moves (Hana, Firehawk, and Dawnbr3ak3r saw it all). It only make sense in terms of human players getting stuck on the apron with a partner who never tags out. In that case, it's a great change. For simming not so much. Also, it's good at letting matches actually end. Before they'd all go to 40-60 minutes. Now all the wrestlers are tired out and it ends around 30, where it should. Oddly enough my tag matches are now longer because of late match tags. Pre patch my tags were around 25 min. Now theyve been averaging 30+. The more I sim the more I agree with View, this has to be a short sighted fix for actual players... |
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Post by Timberwolf on Dec 22, 2018 19:24:29 GMT
I've been experimenting with this some more. Ref with fast count, fast movement, and slightly long run in check seems to help cut down on the match times. I average about 25 minutes a match now. Tags are still frequent, but at least the matches are not running too long.
Bonus of a slightly longer run in check on ref setting - with the non legal guy staying in the ring longer, it is more likely a double team move ends a match.
Before, my run in check was set to slightly short, which was just enough for a tag, double team, then back out on the apron. Now with slightly long run in check, they are more likely to do a double team. Plus the non legal guy is still taking damage.
I don't like this new tag logic either, but I'm adapting with my new settings. Gotta do what I gotta do.
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Post by Spunk on Dec 22, 2018 21:03:33 GMT
Yeah, this is definitely busted.
They just needed to tweak guys not tagging out near the end of the match. That's it.
My tag matches have been decidedly shorter because of this. Usually one guy would stay in way too long, but it would keep the match going. Now the quick tags make it a lot easier for one side to just obliterate the other team.
With some tweaks I think around 35% touchwork (!!!!!) seems about right. I feel like this is really messing up how tag teams work, as the old style was based on damage, not just... Random.
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Post by OrochiGeese on Dec 23, 2018 1:34:25 GMT
That's the problem.
The best we can do now is to simulate the old style of matches...themselves a simulation.
We've gone like Matrix within a Matrix now 🧠💥
A mode that did a very good job of simulating pro wrestling tag match psychology now has to have logic settings changed for each edit so that we can attempt to simulate the way the game used to work.
But since it's now based on timing and not damage, there are going to be many situations where the illusion fades. Any time an edit hasn't taken damage but suddenly tags out is going to break that immersion cause we'll know they've hit that "time wall" rather than because they were legit hurt and needed to tag out.
This really messes up how tag team matches work. I can't think of anything that Spike has done throughout the past year and a half of FPW that fundamentally changed the engine like this.
If they wanted to help out 1P in tag matches, that's a noble and easily attainable goal. They didn't have to completely rewire tag match psychology to do that. They could have just wired functionality to that "gesture from the apron" animation that never did anything but clearly was supposed to get a CPU wrestler to tag out.
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Post by DM_PSX on Dec 23, 2018 2:56:16 GMT
That's the problem. The best we can do now is to simulate the old style of matches...themselves a simulation. We've gone like Matrix within a Matrix now 🧠💥 A mode that did a very good job of simulating pro wrestling tag match psychology now has to have logic settings changed for each edit so that we can attempt to simulate the way the game used to work. But since it's now based on timing and not damage, there are going to be many situations where the illusion fades. Any time an edit hasn't taken damage but suddenly tags out is going to break that immersion cause we'll know they've hit that "time wall" rather than because they were legit hurt and needed to tag out. This really messes up how tag team matches work. I can't think of anything that Spike has done throughout the past year and a half of FPW that fundamentally changed the engine like this. If they wanted to help out 1P in tag matches, that's a noble and easily attainable goal. They didn't have to completely rewire tag match psychology to do that. They could have just wired functionality to that "gesture from the apron" animation that never did anything but clearly was supposed to get a CPU wrestler to tag out. You were right the first time. As I figured out, it was to help 1P, and you replied that that there was a call for tag button, which I think we all forgot about because it doesn't work. :) Call for tag IS the correct answer. The correct method should be DID THEY RECEIVE ENOUGH DAMAGE (PER THE SLIDER?) TAG OUT. DID THE CALL TAG BUTTON GET PRESSED? (MAYBE TAG OUT. CONSIDER TOUCHWORK VALUE. PUT LIKE A 10% THRESHOLD.) DID THE CALL TAG BUTTON GET PRESSED? (THEY DIDN'T TAG OUT LAST TIME, BUT A TIME THRESHOLD HAS BEEN PASSED). TAG OUT OVERRIDE. Problem fixed. |
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Post by Dawnbr3ak3r on Dec 23, 2018 3:17:46 GMT
Boy, am I glad I've decided to emulate the chaos of Lucha Tag matches with my edits.
I've had my edits set to 100% Touchwork since Day 1 of Early Access. I've been using a Fast ref for Tag Matches for the last six to eight months. I've noticed almost no change at all. All of my matches are still running, on average, 25 to 30 minutes.
I don't have to fix anything. It's a big ol' glass of "fuck it", if you will.
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Post by OrochiGeese on Dec 23, 2018 5:53:53 GMT
Boy, am I glad I've decided to emulate the chaos of Lucha Tag matches with my edits. I've had my edits set to 100% Touchwork since Day 1 of Early Access. I've been using a Fast ref for Tag Matches for the last six to eight months. I've noticed almost no change at all. All of my matches are still running, on average, 25 to 30 minutes. I don't have to fix anything. It's a big ol' glass of "fuck it", if you will. Lucha chaos gives me an idea... I may just have to switch my fed Tag Championship to Tornado rules 😎 You were right the first time. As I figured out, it was to help 1P, and you replied that that there was a call for tag button, which I think we all forgot about because it doesn't work. :) Call for tag IS the correct answer. I'll take "Ways to avoid ruining a series" for $1000, Alex 🙋♂️❓ It's really sad that the team didn't realize they had a command already in the game (one since 2005) and decided to completely reinvent something that didn't need changing as a result. I don't have a ton of confidence in this new team as a result of this. If they don't change this, rolling back may need to be a reality. I love my Fire Pro tag matches and they just aren't the same anymore. The correct method should be DID THEY RECEIVE ENOUGH DAMAGE (PER THE SLIDER?) TAG OUT. DID THE CALL TAG BUTTON GET PRESSED? (MAYBE TAG OUT. CONSIDER TOUCHWORK VALUE. PUT LIKE A 10% THRESHOLD.) DID THE CALL TAG BUTTON GET PRESSED? (THEY DIDN'T TAG OUT LAST TIME, BUT A TIME THRESHOLD HAS BEEN PASSED). TAG OUT OVERRIDE. Problem fixed. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I don't have an issue with a time threshold if it's tied specifically to the "call tag button" as a 1P override to the old damage logic system. |
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Post by Timberwolf on Dec 23, 2018 5:59:18 GMT
The sad thing is, those devs don't pay attention to user bug reports. Seems like this new team is focusing on 1P play, not CPU vs CPU sims.  |
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Post by DM_PSX on Dec 23, 2018 6:21:55 GMT
The sad thing is, those devs don't pay attention to user bug reports. Seems like this new team is focusing on 1P play, not CPU vs CPU sims. They've paid attention to almost all our bugs and suggestions, and added almost every move that we has a community came a consensus on. It's also a real issue that needed to be fixed. Hard to beat mission mode when your partner never tags you in. It just needs some tweaking. It probably made the career mode they are working on difficult too. It's a small misstep, now a conspiracy to ruin your life. |
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Post by Timberwolf on Dec 23, 2018 6:31:38 GMT
The sad thing is, those devs don't pay attention to user bug reports. Seems like this new team is focusing on 1P play, not CPU vs CPU sims. They've paid attention to almost all our bugs and suggestions, and added almost every move that we has a community came a consensus on. It's also a real issue that needed to be fixed. Hard to beat mission mode when your partner never tags you in. It just needs some tweaking. It probably made the career mode they are working on difficult too. It's a small misstep, now a conspiracy to ruin your life. Like Geese said, all they had to do is fix the "call tag" button if a player wants the CPU player to tag him. That's it. The devs need to know and people need to let them know. I'm lowering my touchwork big time and am using a longer run in check on the ref so the non legal guy takes more damage. But I prefer the old logic as many of you do. |
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Post by OrochiGeese on Dec 23, 2018 6:34:34 GMT
I tweeted this to Spike. Hopefully it has some positive effect but I'm doubtful. I don't see them doing this huge overhaul in the engine then suddenly changing course cause some Goose on the internet cries fowl. If anyone can explain this more clearly, I encourage you to message them too. |
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Post by Timberwolf on Dec 23, 2018 7:42:07 GMT
I tweeted this to Spike. Hopefully it has some positive effect but I'm doubtful. I don't see them doing this huge overhaul in the engine then suddenly changing course cause some Goose on the internet cries fowl. If anyone can explain this more clearly, I encourage you to message them too. I tweeted Spike as well with a mention to you, Geese. I used my real name as I didn't have an alt account for Fire Pro, but I'm sure you can figure out who I am 😉 |
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