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Post by dnmt on Sept 13, 2018 5:46:31 GMT
Just wondering what everyone thinks about this. Obviously criticals are a huge part of Fire Pro but when thinking about simulating realistic pro-wrestling matches, I can't really think of a single match that ended in the equivalent of a Fire Pro Critical. Perhaps only setting everyone's critical ability to Finisher is the best way to do it, but I can't think of really any other scenarios where a match ends randomly unless there is a shoot injury. Am I missing out on something big here?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 6:39:08 GMT
I keep them on low for regular wrestling matches, but I'd never turn them off.
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Post by kip1985 on Sept 13, 2018 6:46:54 GMT
I don't usually speak on my preferences for Fire Pro, but I really like the idea of talking about this subject. I might get heat for saying this, but I believe the only Critical style that makes sense in a pro-wrestling setting is Technical. Guys like Ric Flair and Bret Hart have been known to end matches not only by their main submission move, but also by flash pins. I'm also of the mindset that other styles don't work for pro-wrestlers. I can see why some people would give Striking to Misawa, Submission to Inoki, Suplex to Tsuruta, Technical to Fujinami and Power to Vader, but for my preference, I stick to Finisher and Criticals off.
However, I totally want all MMA/Boxing edits I use to have some sort of Critical style other than Finisher. My MMA matches have Criticals set to High, and my general idea of MMA/Boxing is that a knockout/injury can happen at any time. Having Cro Cop high kick his opponent 10 seconds into the match and seeing CRITICAL! flash across the screen is much more fulfilling (to me) than watching Misawa and Kawada tear each other apart just to have the match end on a random elbow. I can definitely see the appeal in a long match ending in such a way, but I don't really care much for it.
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Post by DM_PSX on Sept 13, 2018 8:38:55 GMT
Just wondering what everyone thinks about this. Obviously criticals are a huge part of Fire Pro but when thinking about simulating realistic pro-wrestling matches, I can't really think of a single match that ended in the equivalent of a Fire Pro Critical. Perhaps only setting everyone's critical ability to Finisher is the best way to do it, but I can't think of really any other scenarios where a match ends randomly unless there is a shoot injury. Am I missing out on something big here? It's very rare, but it happens. When Brock Lesnar debuted out of the crowd in 2002, and through his first televised matches, he was KO'ing other wrestlers with the F5 every week. Batista was KOing people with his clothesline when he came over to RAW after he stopped being the deacon. It has happened a few more times in recent memory. Usually when someone is getting a new finisher over. Wasn't Joe knocking out people in NXT? Passing out in a submission hold also counts as a KO. I had someone pass out in a figure 4 (as a finisher) last night after a long NWA style match. It was not out of place at all. Last man standing matches are KO only. BRAWL FOR ALL (1998) was a KO only tournament, and ended with Butterbean KO'ing Bart Gunn at Wrestlemania 14. And kayfabe referees don't like main event matches to end on anything but a clean fall. Lots of matches could have ended in KO, but they didn't, for the same reason they don't end by count out. This happened at All In. Cody Rhodes was technically knocked out by Nick Aldis, but DDP came out to buy him time to collect himself (and make him a sympathetic underdog). Also, Earl Hebner was the referee, and he's having none of that. Also this is a stretch, but as someone stated above, you could almost say that Cody won by Flash Pin reversal. Fire Pro is not a WWE simulator. It does puroresu and MMA and boxing (to an extent). It tries to simulate all of wrestling, and Japanese wrestling has had lots of cross over with MMA and boxing. There was the Inoki vs Ali fights. The worked shoot leagues of the 1980s, and their invasion of NJPW. Then we had Inoki's crazy idea to have MMA matches on NJPW cards in the early 2000s when he killed his business. MMA guys freelancing on wrestling shows, etc... |
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Post by Guacamole Anderson on Sept 13, 2018 10:53:34 GMT
I keep them on low for regular wrestling matches, but I'd never turn them off. Same here. When I'm e-fedding, I use Criticals for injury angles and then use a random number generator to determine the number of months said Criticaled wrestler needs to recuperate. |
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Post by mbxfilms on Sept 13, 2018 11:18:19 GMT
Right now while I am still building most of my rosters I keep it off for simming to see things conclude naturally without the luck of a critical ending things. Then when I get to really playing more with my rosters I keep it on, or if I do play I turn it on for the fun factor.
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Post by kikrusher99 on Sept 13, 2018 12:21:03 GMT
I always play with critical on high. I enjoy seeing a critical now and again. That might be too high for some, but I'm not going for a full simulation of real life wrestling.
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Post by jetlag on Sept 13, 2018 12:38:57 GMT
Just wondering what everyone thinks about this. Obviously criticals are a huge part of Fire Pro but when thinking about simulating realistic pro-wrestling matches, I can't really think of a single match that ended in the equivalent of a Fire Pro Critical. Perhaps only setting everyone's critical ability to Finisher is the best way to do it, but I can't think of really any other scenarios where a match ends randomly unless there is a shoot injury. Am I missing out on something big here? I can think of a few:
- during a Jumbo vs. Misawa 6 man tag from 1990 or 1991, Misawa KOs Fuchi with a flying elbow smash. IIRC he actually pinned him after that, but they made it look like a KO with Misawa trying to pick him up and Fuchi selling death. This was during the Jumbo vs. Misawa feud and they put over Misawas elbows as deadly to make him look credible with Jumbo
- Misawa again, KOing Stan Hansen to win the Triple Crown.
- Yoshinari Ogawa winning the GHC title in about 5 minutes, beating Jun Akiyama with a cradle.
- Tatsumi Fujinami defeating Shinya Hashimoto in about 6 minutes with a cradle for the IWGP title in the main event or semi main event of a Dome show in... 1996 I think?
- Kandori/Hokuto ending with simple KO punches after they use all their finishers
- Shinya Hashimoto & Tadao Yasuda vs. Masao Inoue & Tamon Honda, ref stops the match when Inoue can't get up after taking several chops to his shoulder from Hashimoto
- in the early years of WAR, Takashi Ishikawa would defeat most of his opponents by stomping and punching them till the ref stopped the match
Of course this is mostly japanese wrestling... because Fire Pro was built for japanese wrestling. There's also the MMA crossover with pro wrestling and worked or real shoots sometimes happen in the ring, (Takada vs. Kitao, Inoki vs. Great Antonio, Hashimoto vs. Ogawa) and you would have characters like Shinobu Kandori or Tatsumi Fujinami for whom the Crit abilities are perfect. Personally, I like the Criticals and KOs as they keep matches unpredictable (something that is lacking from your typical "hit all your moves" big match these days) though I usually leave them at low. If you don't want your top guys to get pinned 4 minutes into a match by that cheeky rollup master you can always give them the anti-critical special skills.
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Post by view619 on Sept 13, 2018 12:55:49 GMT
Wrestling matches are low criticals so I can simulate injuries.
Boxing matches are medium so they happen more often, but aren't frequently ending matches.
MMA matches are high since there's a greater variety of critical endings due to the different styles available.
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Post by amsterDAN on Sept 13, 2018 14:43:10 GMT
While I agree that tech crits are the only ones you'd realistically find in the average pro wrestling match, I still keep criticals on at least low, mainly just because criticals are a grand Fire Pro tradition. Also, the way I run my e-feds, I purposely paint myself into corners where I need to explain surprising match results away in storyline, so criticals are a good way to lead my angles to unexpected places. For example, my world heavyweight champion was shockingly crit'd by a junior who hit him with a moonsault elbow drop - definitely not what I'd expected or wanted to happen - so I explained it away that while the ref was raising his arm a dented scrap of metal fell out of his elbow guard but the ref allowed the result to stand, which lead to the ref's suspension and eventual heel turn as well as a no-pads-allowed rematch, a storyline that turned out quite fun and interesting that I otherwise would never have come up with. So yeah, I keep criticals on to keep me on my toes.
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Post by dnmt on Sept 13, 2018 14:50:11 GMT
I am trying to think about any "Criticals" that occurred in NJPW in the last few years. The only thing I can think of outside of Yano matches is when Hiromu crushed KUSHIDA in 2 minutes that one time.
Most flash pinfalls occur late in the match and can just be simulated by having those moves with a small % in logic for the Opp. Critical Condition stage.
The other thing that I think criticals can add is another chance for matches to end immediately upon the first time a finisher is hit.
That leads me to a question. If Okada hits a critical Rainmaker, and I have the pin priority to 100%, will he get a pinfall in before the match ends in a "KO"?
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Post by Severla on Sept 13, 2018 15:35:15 GMT
No, grapples and strikes just straight up KO and the AI will back off of the deceased corpse lol. A pinning move will just instantly break and the body still goes limp.
Crit subs can trigger and get rope breaks, though, as can pins. I know in SWA-rules if a sub crits but gets a rope break the Edit goes limp the next time they are knocked down (its still a guaranteed win, more or less). In normal matches a rope-break crit sub usually instantly destroys the defense of whatever limb was attacked.
Edit: Whoops, forgot to mention my preference.
I enjoy the crits as 'oh, shit' and potential injury moments. I do agree that basically no wrestlers should have Strike/Sub crit unless their stats are shit. Tech stretches a bit more positively for the pins, and Power I enjoy the idea of giving to 'rookies' who are so green they accidentally drop you on your head.
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Post by mbxfilms on Sept 13, 2018 15:37:01 GMT
That leads me to a question. If Okada hits a critical Rainmaker, and I have the pin priority to 100%, will he get a pinfall in before the match ends in a "KO"? No the CPU always stands back and the ref checks for the KO. Even if there is priority. I know when I play I pin though...... |
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LunchBox
JIM MINY
Thermos sold separately
Posts: 86 
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Post by LunchBox on Sept 13, 2018 17:17:28 GMT
Always on and always on low.
They happen so rarely that they are always exciting.
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Post by Spunk on Sept 13, 2018 19:42:17 GMT
Always on, always on medium or high.
Also, it happens in wrestling at a steady click, just probably not what you're watching. Hell, I just watched a tag match from the Choshu Produce show in July where Nakajima kicked the tar out of Takuya Nomura and got a stoppage victory. Earlier this year Kenoh beat Kaito Kiyomiya via stoppage in a GHC title bout. These are just off the top of my head.
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