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Post by Princess Pepperoni on May 8, 2019 15:20:32 GMT
I definitely disagree that the Rest Hold mod is just a crutch for bad logic. Sure, it could be used simply as a safety net if you want edits to do finisher-level submissions all over the place without winning, but that'd be a silly way to use it and most people I know who use the mod do so a bit more thoughtfully than that. The main thing that got me on board were the MMA moves, particularly the knuckle arrows, headbutts, rib punches, side body knees and what not that are all able to end matches. Since I don't make any MMA fighters myself, I love being able to use those in small amounts on my pro wrestlers in the late stages of a match without fear of a bad ending. One particular thing I like to do is give a not-particularly-vicious edit something like the elbow butts or mount punches late in the match, to give the appearance of them "snapping" and beating the piss out of the other guy like Ralphie does to Scott Farkus in A Christmas Story. I suppose the negative impact of using rest holds is that on occasion I'll see an odd ending to a wrestling match from one of my edits in another person's game, like crown knee kicks causing a submission, but I do what I can to minimize those chances, and I consider it a small price to pay to be able to use the MMA moves a lot more liberally in my game. When you watch a real wrestling match, things like pindowns are pretty commonplace so I find it adds a little extra dash of realism being able to bust those out some more while ensuring you'll still have a proper pro-wrestling ending to your match. Did you test June with the mod disabled before you submitted her? Could explain some of the quick match finishes. |
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Post by amsterDAN on May 8, 2019 16:03:39 GMT
I definitely disagree that the Rest Hold mod is just a crutch for bad logic. Sure, it could be used simply as a safety net if you want edits to do finisher-level submissions all over the place without winning, but that'd be a silly way to use it and most people I know who use the mod do so a bit more thoughtfully than that. The main thing that got me on board were the MMA moves, particularly the knuckle arrows, headbutts, rib punches, side body knees and what not that are all able to end matches. Since I don't make any MMA fighters myself, I love being able to use those in small amounts on my pro wrestlers in the late stages of a match without fear of a bad ending. One particular thing I like to do is give a not-particularly-vicious edit something like the elbow butts or mount punches late in the match, to give the appearance of them "snapping" and beating the piss out of the other guy like Ralphie does to Scott Farkus in A Christmas Story. I suppose the negative impact of using rest holds is that on occasion I'll see an odd ending to a wrestling match from one of my edits in another person's game, like crown knee kicks causing a submission, but I do what I can to minimize those chances, and I consider it a small price to pay to be able to use the MMA moves a lot more liberally in my game. When you watch a real wrestling match, things like pindowns are pretty commonplace so I find it adds a little extra dash of realism being able to bust those out some more while ensuring you'll still have a proper pro-wrestling ending to your match. Did you test June with the mod disabled before you submitted her? Could explain some of the quick match finishes. It's funny you mention her, because June is actually the specific edit that taught me about the perils of using the rest holds mod in combination with MMA moves. While I did intend on her being able to win with her MMA mount heel hold (I've since made that her proper finisher, even), I never wanted her to win a match via submission to crown knee kicks, which she of course did one time in the March Madness tourney. I've since gone through and adjusted her and other edits I had set like that so unusual and unwanted endings have a pretty negligible chance of occurring, while still giving me a bit of the late MMA mounts I personally like to see in my game. Honestly, the main problem with June was that I went waaaaaaay overboard with two specific priority chains that both lead to the same place, the turning v-trigger -> kamigoye -> gannosuke clutch and the falcon arrow crush -> kamigoye -> gannosuke clutch. Not only did I have her Kick offense higher than I should have for someone so kick-heavy, I also had EVERY move in BOTH of those sequences tagged as Signatures and the kamigoye as Finisher. I'd envisioned those sequences as late-match out-of-nowhere sudden rallies to win, but I left the percentages cranked way too high so she hit those sequences far too frequently and just murdered people with it time and again. She also got unlucky (or lucky, for her) in that she magically hit her 1% falcon arrow crush in medium damage in multiple matches, which set off the aforementioned ridiculously overpowered priority chain really early and changed the shape of a lot of her matches. |
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Post by sofia on May 8, 2019 20:06:50 GMT
It does, and it's a crutch for bad logic frankly... but that's probably opening up a can of worms. Its not a crutch if you use it for it's purpose. Can add a lot to pacing to have a submission late even if you know it won't cause a submission. It only leads to "bad logic" if using that edit without the mod on. If you have to rely on a mod for the edit's logic to make sense, then it's not exactly "good." this is a video game, not the real thing, so there's no real reason to have a wrestler slap on a chinlock 15 minutes into a 20 minute match, unless it is meant to be a potential finish. The reason those holds are used in a rl match at that point are for two reasons: one is the stated purpose of the mod, and also because it gives the wrestlers and ref a chance to confer on what spot is coming next. Since they don't actually give the attacker any extra stamina recovery, and also the concept of calling spots doesn't actually exist in a video game, the moves are pointless fluff that just increases the likelihood of a disappointing finish. And the rest hold mod also disables submissions for wrestlers who CAN finish on a submission that isn't a signature or finisher. This essentially nerfs any wrestler trying to work U-Style, for example. |
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Post by LankyLefty17 on May 8, 2019 20:18:57 GMT
Its not a crutch if you use it for it's purpose. Can add a lot to pacing to have a submission late even if you know it won't cause a submission. It only leads to "bad logic" if using that edit without the mod on. If you have to rely on a mod for the edit's logic to make sense, then it's not exactly "good." this is a video game, not the real thing, so there's no real reason to have a wrestler slap on a chinlock 15 minutes into a 20 minute match, unless it is meant to be a potential finish. The reason those holds are used in a rl match at that point are for two reasons: one is the stated purpose of the mod, and also because it gives the wrestlers and ref a chance to confer on what spot is coming next. Since they don't actually give the attacker any extra stamina recovery, and also the concept of calling spots doesn't actually exist in a video game, the moves are pointless fluff that just increases the likelihood of a disappointing finish. And the rest hold mod also disables submissions for wrestlers who CAN finish on a submission that isn't a signature or finisher. This essentially nerfs any wrestler trying to work U-Style, for example.
I don't really understand the "good" or "bad" of it. The mod is a tool to be able to use certain moves late match without finishing. That can absolutely create a scenario where edits slap on a bunch of stuff that should finish but don't. But that's not the mod, that's a misuse of the mod.
I don't personally use the mod because it would wreck anyone grabbing my edits from the workshop. But people have outlined some very valid reasons to use it. As long as they understand that without the mod their edits really shouldn't be used by others, I don't understand why its an issue.
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Post by heelsinc on May 8, 2019 20:21:12 GMT
Its not a crutch if you use it for it's purpose. Can add a lot to pacing to have a submission late even if you know it won't cause a submission. It only leads to "bad logic" if using that edit without the mod on. If you have to rely on a mod for the edit's logic to make sense, then it's not exactly "good." this is a video game, not the real thing, so there's no real reason to have a wrestler slap on a chinlock 15 minutes into a 20 minute match, unless it is meant to be a potential finish. The reason those holds are used in a rl match at that point are for two reasons: one is the stated purpose of the mod, and also because it gives the wrestlers and ref a chance to confer on what spot is coming next. Since they don't actually give the attacker any extra stamina recovery, and also the concept of calling spots doesn't actually exist in a video game, the moves are pointless fluff that just increases the likelihood of a disappointing finish. And the rest hold mod also disables submissions for wrestlers who CAN finish on a submission that isn't a signature or finisher. This essentially nerfs any wrestler trying to work U-Style, for example. I mean as i stated the real reason to have them do that is to simulate a real wrestling match. Again its all a matter of preference. If i want to simulate a real life match I want a rest hold ten minutes in. If you dont care about getting it as close to real as possible you don't need to put a rest hold in. One way isn't bad or wrong it's just how you want your matches to flow. I for one want to simulate as close to real life as possible thus use of the mod. Pretty sure he just released a similar mod for pinning moves which now means I can have a move prioitied into a pin but marked in a mod to never finish a match making that move a true false finish move that will never get a 3 count. Just like real life. One could argue that the mod makes the logic "better" because it strips away a limitation of the game that moves it further away from real life wrestling amd with this being a simulation game and not an action/arcade game the point is to get as close to real life as possible. Again i wont make that argument though :) cause I don't care how people choose to play a video game. Do what makes you happy but to say it's bad and wrong to use the mod is just incorrect. |
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Post by amsterDAN on May 8, 2019 20:45:31 GMT
I've found that on the one hand, there are simmers who treat edit-making itself as a sort of sport, where it's all about what you can make happen within the confines of the vanilla game mechanics, and it is very important to them that their edits behave the same way on someone else's computer as they do on theirs. On the other hand, there are simmers whose main goal is to try and force this wonky-ass game to show them the most realistic-looking match they can possibly squeeze out of it by any means necessary. To the former group, the thought of using the rest holds mod is almost offensive. For the latter, the rest holds mod can be an absolutely crucial component in making a wrestling match look "right". Basically, are you trying to put together good-looking and competitive pro-wrestling shoot matches, or are you trying to stage a more true-to-life theatrical pro-wrestling play? I say both ways are equally valid ways to play the game, and it's perfectly possible to do both.
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Post by view619 on May 8, 2019 21:30:07 GMT
One could argue that the mod makes the logic "better" because it strips away a limitation of the game that moves it further away from real life wrestling amd with this being a simulation game and not an action/arcade game the point is to get as close to real life as possible. This is absolutely an action/arcade game that's being forced into the mold of a simulation game; even with "advanced logic" it's still two players participating in an action game while following the script of a wrestling match. It's no different than playing a fighting game and working the match to follow a story fight. I agree with everything else though, so carry on. |
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Post by heelsinc on May 8, 2019 23:13:40 GMT
One could argue that the mod makes the logic "better" because it strips away a limitation of the game that moves it further away from real life wrestling amd with this being a simulation game and not an action/arcade game the point is to get as close to real life as possible. This is absolutely an action/arcade game that's being forced into the mold of a simulation game; even with "advanced logic" it's still two players participating in an action game while following the script of a wrestling match. It's no different than playing a fighting game and working the match to follow a story fight. I agree with everything else though, so carry on. I for sure think the debate is there to make that it's more sim than action with the logic as well as the rating scale being based on how well you actually "work" the match. To me its more sim with action elements than action with sim elements. |
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Post by Brick9mm on May 9, 2019 6:14:39 GMT
I've found that on the one hand, there are simmers who treat edit-making itself as a sort of sport, where it's all about what you can make happen within the confines of the vanilla game mechanics, and it is very important to them that their edits behave the same way on someone else's computer as they do on theirs. On the other hand, there are simmers whose main goal is to try and force this wonky-ass game to show them the most realistic-looking match they can possibly squeeze out of it by any means necessary. To the former group, the thought of using the rest holds mod is almost offensive. For the latter, the rest holds mod can be an absolutely crucial component in making a wrestling match look "right". Basically, are you trying to put together good-looking and competitive pro-wrestling shoot matches, or are you trying to stage a more true-to-life theatrical pro-wrestling play? I say both ways are equally valid ways to play the game, and it's perfectly possible to do both. The goal for both approaches you've stated is exactly the same, getting this wonky-ass game to churn out realistic matches as consistently as possible. Any move that should be a rest hold is already a rest-hold in the vanilla game. In fact, using rest-holds mod blatantly goes against realism because any wrestler anyone likes does everything they do with doing damage and finishing their opponent in mind. A wrestler slapping on any hold late-match that's above what the game itself deems as a resthold is expecting it to potentially end the match. Yes, wrestlers frequently do moves that never win matches. I see this as a failing of pro wrestling psychology that takes me out of it. Guys I like do it all the time and it sucks. It makes zero logical sense that a guy throwing a sick lariat 20 minutes in wouldn't end the match. Especially when they do it several times. Likewise, it makes zero logical sense that a hold that would realistically snap someone's arm in two would not potentially finish a match. Call it a "shoot" mentality, but this is fundamental shit designed to prevent the suspension of disbelief from being entirely shattered. Distinguishing "Competitive pro-wrestling shoot matches" from "true-to-life theatrical pro wrestling play" is pointless because they're the same thing. Even guys like Omega and The Young Bucks do everything they do with getting closer to the end in mind, they just have a flashier way of going about it. Honestly, a lot of this post reads like a fundamental misunderstanding of the game. As if there's a weird expectation that good edit makers do not have as close to total control as you can get, and don't know how to ensure late match holds rarely tap. |
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Post by LankyLefty17 on May 9, 2019 6:29:13 GMT
Actually I think the point being made is there is multiple ways to make an edit do what you want, mods being one of them. And calling one “right” and one “wrong” seems like a silly stance to take. If it works for people to use the mod, I dont see why thats a bad thing.
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Post by Wonderland on May 9, 2019 7:24:27 GMT
Actually I think the point being made is there is multiple ways to make an edit do what you want, mods being one of them. And calling one “right” and one “wrong” seems like a silly stance to take. If it works for people to use the mod, I dont see why thats a bad thing. You just don't understand the game. Please uninstall. |
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takuan
Steel Johnson
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Post by takuan on May 9, 2019 11:54:22 GMT
Actually I think the point being made is there is multiple ways to make an edit do what you want, mods being one of them. And calling one “right” and one “wrong” seems like a silly stance to take. If it works for people to use the mod, I dont see why thats a bad thing. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to make a Fire Pro edit. There is only 'what the author wants it to do'. If an edit does what it's author wants it to do, then it is good. If someone else's edit does not do what you want edits to do, that doesn't make them 'bad', it just makes them not for you. |
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Post by Wonderland on May 9, 2019 11:57:40 GMT
You're wrong. And bad.
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Post by view619 on May 9, 2019 13:23:03 GMT
Actually I think the point being made is there is multiple ways to make an edit do what you want, mods being one of them. And calling one “right” and one “wrong” seems like a silly stance to take. If it works for people to use the mod, I dont see why thats a bad thing. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to make a Fire Pro edit. There is only 'what the author wants it to do'. If an edit does what it's author wants it to do, then it is good. If someone else's edit does not do what you want edits to do, that doesn't make them 'bad', it just makes them not for you. But what if your edits hit top rope moves and never pin afterwards? Or don't have priorities to resolve the awful base game logic of chaining dives? D: |
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takuan
Steel Johnson
Posts: 154
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Post by takuan on May 9, 2019 14:55:23 GMT
Look, Ultimate Warrior kicking out of 6 elbow drops in a row is one of the best and most memorable spots in the history of are sport so dive chaining is objectively good and also psychology.
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