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Post by ninjabrute on Mar 6, 2019 21:30:55 GMT
To tag on the convo, I do enjoy upset wins, it's better than 5 star matches all the time. I'd agree but it sounds like you mean to affirm that random pins at some small percent is a good way for this to happen when you can just make short match edits instead. |
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Post by IamAres on Mar 7, 2019 1:01:38 GMT
I don't personally use random pinfalls in critical damage either, but I'm hearing a lot of dumping on a guy who's contributed a shit-ton of time and effort into putting stuff out there for the community.
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Post by djkm77 on Mar 7, 2019 1:08:41 GMT
The reason I add the 5 percent do you even sim or do you have you not gotten a pinfall off irish whip bump or turnbuckle bump yet to realize how dumb that is especially now that we have 12 prios i think everyone would vote to remove those 5% pins now Whats a sim? |
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Post by Pandakid on Mar 7, 2019 2:09:20 GMT
do you even sim or do you have you not gotten a pinfall off irish whip bump or turnbuckle bump yet to realize how dumb that is especially now that we have 12 prios i think everyone would vote to remove those 5% pins now Whats a sim? please be a joke |
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Post by chopperdave on Mar 7, 2019 2:36:45 GMT
I don't personally use random pinfalls in critical damage either, but I'm hearing a lot of dumping on a guy who's contributed a shit-ton of time and effort into putting stuff out there for the community. I agree. I'm not a fan of random pins finishing a match, but DJKM has given so much to help keep things going with edit making. I know I probably would've stopped playing FPR if it wasn't for his great edits. Please keep things respectful is all I ask. |
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Post by sofia on Mar 7, 2019 2:42:15 GMT
I get that DJKM wants to lower match times, but there are better ways to do it than using random pinfalls in ND. Using a faster moving and faster counting ref ensures that the matches end faster. Lowering ukemi means there's less of a chance of a comeback. Raising offense stats and lowering defense stats will hasten the match pace. Not even Spike did that once they introduced priorities in Returns. It was a mindset that many of us had when the game first came out, sure, but it's not conducive to an interesting match. Winning off a turnbuckle bump, or a simple weak strike into a pin, is kind of an anticlimax, no? Doesn't it make more sense for a match to end off of a big move, or a quick pinning sequence? Even a school boy would work for scrappy underdogs or conniving heels.
More to the original point: Unless you're working on an edit for specific rules - like Soak's Wasteland concept, or brick9mm's Honoo fed - I don't really see the need to use templates anymore... I guess they kind of have some use if you need a jumping off point for a wrestler idea, but the logic itself needs drastic reworking to fit in FPWW versus FPR.
If you must use something as a guideline, I kind of prefer using the NJPW defaults as a rough starting point, especially someone like Tanahashi. You can get an idea of the mindset of the development team in creating a real life wrestler, see how they try and fit in some of his RL spots to a game environment. He avoids the mistakes and traps of a lot of RL edits on the workshop, as well - your random pinfalls, your weardown submissions in ND, and so on. It's not perfect, but it's a better starting point than edit templates made for a 14 year old game under the assumption of its restrictions (3 priorities, plus a lack of understanding of what priorities even are).
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Post by djkm77 on Mar 7, 2019 2:54:49 GMT
You realize how minuscule the 5 percent pin is to an actual edit. Like I said I have slowly been getting rid of them and that these templates were made for Returns. Most of my templates are made to give you an idea what attributes should be used for each wrestler so you are not giving hardbody to a junior. Also they are built to wrestlers do the proper moves which lead to certain moves. I ported these over the first week of the game to help people make edits because they were intimidated by logic and the game.
It also gives you an idea how to build a match so your wrestlers are not going for finishers early in the match or using them 5 times in a match. Either way different strokes for different folks.
Honestly I don't know half of the people posting any more but you should all read Bill Woods guide before edit making or giving advice to others. There are quite a few other guides out there as well.
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Post by mur96 on Mar 7, 2019 2:58:46 GMT
This topic smells like passive agressiveness.
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Post by crippler19 on Mar 7, 2019 3:56:55 GMT
I also add pins in near death damage, always have and always will. Play the game you want to not how others says is “suppose to”
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Post by DM_PSX on Mar 7, 2019 8:24:45 GMT
Random ND pins on some of my heels have given me some of the best match endings. With one guy in particular he has
Pinned someone who just took someone else's finisher, but they too winded to get up and pin themselves.
Stood up first after a receiving a figure four leglock and just pinned for the win.
Reversed a corner move, did a tree of woe, then pinned them when they fell out of it.
Pinned after a bunch of weapon shots.
etc...
Several real great matches I saw this year (some for world titles) have ended on random near death pins and they were great. It's not as uncommon as people think, and it's not a rule that should be followed 100%. Reversing a running move into a pinning rana is cool in real life, and it's cool in firepro too. It's cool to do a late match roll up. It's cool to pin someone who missed a top rope move. It's cool to pin someone your tag team partner attacked. It's cool to steal a battle royale by pinning someone attacked by another. etc... Finisher to pin is the ideal, but don't make it the only option.
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Post by Pandakid on Mar 7, 2019 11:52:22 GMT
Random ND pins on some of my heels have given me some of the best match endings. With one guy in particular he has Pinned someone who just took someone else's finisher, but they too winded to get up and pin themselves. Stood up first after a receiving a figure four leglock and just pinned for the win. Reversed a corner move, did a tree of woe, then pinned them when they fell out of it. Pinned after a bunch of weapon shots. etc... Several real great matches I saw this year (some for world titles) have ended on random near death pins and they were great. It's not as uncommon as people think, and it's not a rule that should be followed 100%. Reversing a running move into a pinning rana is cool in real life, and it's cool in firepro too. It's cool to do a late match roll up. It's cool to pin someone who missed a top rope move. It's cool to pin someone your tag team partner attacked. It's cool to steal a battle royale by pinning someone attacked by another. etc... Finisher to pin is the ideal, but don't make it the only option. Flash pins/roll ups do not equal random pin off a bonk or toe kick |
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Post by TwistC on Mar 7, 2019 13:47:26 GMT
Random ND pins on some of my heels have given me some of the best match endings. With one guy in particular he has Pinned someone who just took someone else's finisher, but they too winded to get up and pin themselves. Stood up first after a receiving a figure four leglock and just pinned for the win. Reversed a corner move, did a tree of woe, then pinned them when they fell out of it. Pinned after a bunch of weapon shots. etc... Several real great matches I saw this year (some for world titles) have ended on random near death pins and they were great. It's not as uncommon as people think, and it's not a rule that should be followed 100%. Reversing a running move into a pinning rana is cool in real life, and it's cool in firepro too. It's cool to do a late match roll up. It's cool to pin someone who missed a top rope move. It's cool to pin someone your tag team partner attacked. It's cool to steal a battle royale by pinning someone attacked by another. etc... Finisher to pin is the ideal, but don't make it the only option. Random pins in ND means while the opponent is on the ground there is a % chance that they will just go for a pin. This does not go for flash pins which include: schoolboys, backslides, small packages huricanranas, etc. |
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Post by jetlag on Mar 7, 2019 18:59:06 GMT
Random ND pins on some of my heels have given me some of the best match endings. With one guy in particular he has Pinned someone who just took someone else's finisher, but they too winded to get up and pin themselves. Stood up first after a receiving a figure four leglock and just pinned for the win. Reversed a corner move, did a tree of woe, then pinned them when they fell out of it. Pinned after a bunch of weapon shots. etc... Several real great matches I saw this year (some for world titles) have ended on random near death pins and they were great. It's not as uncommon as people think, and it's not a rule that should be followed 100%. Reversing a running move into a pinning rana is cool in real life, and it's cool in firepro too. It's cool to do a late match roll up. It's cool to pin someone who missed a top rope move. It's cool to pin someone your tag team partner attacked. It's cool to steal a battle royale by pinning someone attacked by another. etc... Finisher to pin is the ideal, but don't make it the only option. Flash pins/roll ups do not equal random pin off a bonk or toe kick
Pin after a random bonk or toe kick would work very well for 70s/80s style edits. Inoki won his first major title when the other guy went for a Figure 4 and bonked his own head.
Obviously there is no one correct way to do an edit. As someone who uses both 0% pins in ND and as high as 100 % for some edits I wouldn't automatically decide that an edit is crap depending on his ND pin percentages.
Obviously templates are useful if you are making a lot of edits and the advantage of starting with an edit that has for example strike based logic already set up is clear not to mention personality logic percentages. DJKMs templates were also supposed to give people a starting point when they had no clear idea how a "RINGS" or "Fat Slob" style edit would work.
Near Death random pins can work for all the reasons DM-PSX mentioned. People are also underestimating how much you can fine tune even the "random" pins. You won't get a pin from a random bodyslam if you simply set the bodyslam to 0% in Large Damage. To me, watching an edit pick up and slam another again and again without ever trying to win gets boring.
Also, even in the age of 12 priorities if you are particularily obsessed with sequences you may still have to use some tricks to save the slots, for which the ND pins again come in handy.
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Post by sofia on Mar 7, 2019 21:17:56 GMT
Pin after a random bonk or toe kick would work very well for 70s/80s style edits. Inoki won his first major title when the other guy went for a Figure 4 and bonked his own head.
Obviously there is no one correct way to do an edit. As someone who uses both 0% pins in ND and as high as 100 % for some edits I wouldn't automatically decide that an edit is crap depending on his ND pin percentages.
Obviously templates are useful if you are making a lot of edits and the advantage of starting with an edit that has for example strike based logic already set up is clear not to mention personality logic percentages. DJKMs templates were also supposed to give people a starting point when they had no clear idea how a "RINGS" or "Fat Slob" style edit would work. Near Death random pins can work for all the reasons DM-PSX mentioned. People are also underestimating how much you can fine tune even the "random" pins. You won't get a pin from a random bodyslam if you simply set the bodyslam to 0% in Large Damage. To me, watching an edit pick up and slam another again and again without ever trying to win gets boring. Also, even in the age of 12 priorities if you are particularily obsessed with sequences you may still have to use some tricks to save the slots, for which the ND pins again come in handy.
maybe so? but just because it happened in real life doesn't mean it's exactly the best way to end a match, for something that's supposed to be sort of the platonic ideal of wrestling, or something. For as many "pin off of the opponent fucking up" finishes there were then, there were just as many which ended with a move that was considered a legit finisher at the time. I absolutely would consider an edit poor if it has ND pins, especially since I made that same mistake before and had a matches end on a fuckin' snap suplex or a punch to the face. I've since broken that habit, because adding randomness for the sake of randomness doesn't really mean it's a more interesting character - it just means you end up with the possibility of a crap finish. If it's a modern wrestler from any promotion, I think that a random ND pin is probably a bad tiding for the rest of the edit's quality. This applies to anything I did in the past, too. >_>
If it's an OC, especially if they're tryna do any community efforts like e-feds and whatnot, then throwing on random pins just causes more problems than they're worth. Same with putting a fucking chinlock in ND. Absolutely, there are instances where you can throw match-ending moves in down logic, but there's usually a specific design philosophy behind it, like when Geese would eliminate any moves that end in a face-down state other than the ones meant to lead to a face-down submission finisher. But if you're doing that then you need to carefully design the character around that aspect or else, whoops, you end up with something that looks kinda weak-sauce like ending the match on a toe kick into a pin. |
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Post by amsterDAN on Mar 7, 2019 22:22:05 GMT
I appear to be the forum firestarter this week; seems like a lot of off-hand remarks of mine are sparking some, um, lively discussion these days. Whoopsies?
So here's my deal about the random pins: I've gotta respectfully disagree with DJKM when he says 5% is a minuscule amount of percentage points to throw into random pins. Anyone that sims a lot knows you see moves set at 5% and under quite a bit, and in this instance since you set both head and legs pins at 5% each, you're giving the game a 1-in-10 chance of a random pin occurring whenever a wrestler is downed in critical damage. It shouldn't take more than a match - maybe two - to witness ten instances of wrestlers being down while near death. Sure, you can get lucky and go long stretches without the RNG pulling a random pin out to end a match, but you're giving the game a significant opportunity to disappoint you at the end of any given match for no particularly good reason, even though the game itself gives you all the tools you need to (almost) completely eliminate that possibility. My personal edits are definitely not entirely in line with community standards because I like to give people lots and lots and lots of ways to win matches to maximize the chances of surprising endings, but I'd never purposely introduce a potentially match-ending maneuver unless it's guaranteed to be a satisfying way for me to see a match end, and there's just far too many ways for a 10% random pin possibility to go wrong. In my opinion, if an edit doesn't end its matches correctly, there can't possibly be enough good things going for it to make up for that, I don't care how pretty the attires are or how good the beginnings and middles of their matches are. I watch a wrestling match because I want to know how it ends, and if the ending is a disappointment, my experience of the entire match becomes one as well. So I guess that's why I'm a crusader against random pins now, I've seen far too many men succumb to the dreaded drop toe hold, turnbuckle bonk, and front headlock walk after an exhilarating half-hour marathon match.
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